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           <H1>[SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration"</H1>
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            <B>John Woodgate</B> 
        20
            <A HREF="mailto:sc-04-08%40standards.aes.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BSC-04-08%5D%20Comments%20on%20%22SMPTE-Modern-Calibration%22&In-Reply-To=%3Cul4aEyT%24FOYUFwsS%40jmwa.demon.co.uk%3E" TITLE="[SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration"">jmw at jmwa.demon.co.uk
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            <I>Mon Nov 10 09:02:07 MST 2014</I>
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        <PRE>In message <<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">5460DCD1.4060007 at josephson.com</A>>, dated Mon, 10 Nov 2014, 
        38
        David Josephson <<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">dlj at josephson.com</A>> writes:
        39
        ​
        40
        ><i>
        41
        </I>><i>Based on what I heard in the last meeting, and subsequent discussion on 
        42
        </I>><i>this list, I doubt that there is any support for combining the efforts 
        43
        </I>><i>for AES-X215 and AES-X219.
        44
        </I>
        45
        I didn't suggest that there was, and I would oppose such a suggestion. 
        46
        They are separate projects with different scopes/terms of reference and 
        47
        different lead houses - SMPTE and AESSC.
        48
        ​
        49
        My point is that in the intensive email exchanges, the two projects were 
        50
        sometimes confused, causing further confusion and disagreement. So I 
        51
        thought it best to emphasize the differences between the two projects 
        52
        and seek agreement on the clear separation.
        53
        -- 
        54
        OOO - Own Opinions Only. With best wishes. See www.jmwa.demon.co.uk
        55
        Quid faciamus nisi sit?
        56
        John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK
        57
        ​
        58
        </PRE>
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           <H1>[SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration"</H1>
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            <B>David Josephson</B> 
        20
            <A HREF="mailto:sc-04-08%40standards.aes.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BSC-04-08%5D%20Comments%20on%20%22SMPTE-Modern-Calibration%22&In-Reply-To=%3C5460DCD1.4060007%40josephson.com%3E" TITLE="[SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration"">dlj at josephson.com
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            <I>Mon Nov 10 08:42:09 MST 2014</I>
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        <PRE>On 11/10/14 6:57 AM, John Woodgate wrote:
        38
        ​
        39
        ><i> In message <<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">777410D0-DB5F-430E-9D4D-3C698AB425F2 at aes.org</A>>, dated Mon, 10
        40
        </I>><i> Nov 2014, markyonge <<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">mark.yonge at aes.org</A>> writes:
        41
        </I>><i>
        42
        </I>>><i> That project already exists as AES-X219. Current scope reads: "to
        43
        </I>>><i> specify a method of measurement for frequency and impulse response of
        44
        </I>>><i> sound systems in auditoria." Contributions welcome.
        45
        </I>><i>
        46
        </I>><i> OK, I agree with what you say in the bulk of your message. There is a
        47
        </I>><i> lack of clarity as to where the roll-off is generated.
        48
        </I>><i>
        49
        </I>><i> I noted X-219, but that was started, I think, before all that recent
        50
        </I>><i> clamour, and it seemed necessary to ask SC-04-08 whether it still agrees
        51
        </I>><i> to the two *separate* tasks: x-215 - helping SMPTE **on their terms**
        52
        </I>><i> and x-216 - making a new, technically-correct and up-to-date document
        53
        </I>><i> **on AESSC terms**. How SMPTE reacts to x-216 is up to SMPTE.
        54
        </I>
        55
        Based on what I heard in the last meeting, and subsequent discussion on 
        56
        this list, I doubt that there is any support for combining the efforts 
        57
        for AES-X215 and AES-X219. On the surface the intent seems similar, but 
        58
        X215 is specifically about guidance for people maintaining installed 
        59
        cinema systems, and X219 is much broader. AES-X216 is yet another 
        60
        project, and I think SMPTE would be justified in thinking that our lack 
        61
        of comment implies that no one finds serious fault with their approach.
        62
        ​
        63
        AES-X219 could be a huge undertaking if done properly. As with most 
        64
        standards efforts, the challenge is to interest expert participants 
        65
        enough to inspire them to do the work. Nothing has been uploaded to the 
        66
        documents page on this project since it was proposed in early 2013. 
        67
        There has been enough discussion around X215 to indicate that people 
        68
        have strong opinions, but they may be unwilling to join the fray as the 
        69
        project is presently stated.
        70
        ​
        71
        David Josephson
        72
        Chair, SC-04
        73
        </PRE>
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           <H1>[SC-04-08] AES-X219 Clarifications</H1>
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            <B>Bruce C. Olson</B> 
        20
            <A HREF="mailto:sc-04-08%40standards.aes.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BSC-04-08%5D%20AES-X219%20Clarifications&In-Reply-To=%3C007801cffd2b%24d4d602d0%247e820870%24%40aes.org%3E" TITLE="[SC-04-08] AES-X219 Clarifications">bco at aes.org
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            <I>Mon Nov 10 14:18:09 MST 2014</I>
        23
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        <PRE>On Monday, November 10, 2014 9:42 AM David Josephson wrote:
        38
        ​
        39
        On 11/10/14 6:57 AM, John Woodgate wrote:
        40
        ​
        41
        ><i> In message <<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">777410D0-DB5F-430E-9D4D-3C698AB425F2 at aes.org</A>>, dated Mon, 
        42
        </I>><i> 10 Nov 2014, markyonge <<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">mark.yonge at aes.org</A>> writes:
        43
        </I>><i>
        44
        </I>>><i> That project already exists as AES-X219. Current scope reads: "to 
        45
        </I>>><i> specify a method of measurement for frequency and impulse response of 
        46
        </I>>><i> sound systems in auditoria." Contributions welcome.
        47
        </I>><i>
        48
        </I>><i> OK, I agree with what you say in the bulk of your message. There is a 
        49
        </I>><i> lack of clarity as to where the roll-off is generated.
        50
        </I>><i>
        51
        </I>><i> I noted X-219, but that was started, I think, before all that recent 
        52
        </I>><i> clamour, and it seemed necessary to ask SC-04-08 whether it still 
        53
        </I>><i> agrees to the two *separate* tasks: x-215 - helping SMPTE **on their 
        54
        </I>><i> terms** and x-216 - making a new, technically-correct and up-to-date 
        55
        </I>><i> document **on AESSC terms**. How SMPTE reacts to x-216 is up to SMPTE.
        56
        </I>
        57
        AES-X219 could be a huge undertaking if done properly. As with most
        58
        standards efforts, the challenge is to interest expert participants enough
        59
        to inspire them to do the work. Nothing has been uploaded to the documents
        60
        page on this project since it was proposed in early 2013. 
        61
        ​
        62
        [[BCO]] Actually Eddy Brixen uploaded NT acou 108 on 39 Mar 2013 to be used
        63
        as a basis for AES-X219. We need a task leader and for folks to identify the
        64
        following:
        65
            1) Clause to Retain with only editorial changes
        66
            2) Clauses to Remove
        67
            3) Clauses to Improve
        68
            4) Clauses to Add
        69
        ​
        70
        I urge the group to propose items 1 and 2, suggest changes for 3, and
        71
        propose wording for 4.
        72
        ​
        73
        Bruce
        74
        ​
        75
        -- 
        76
        Bruce C. Olson
        77
        Audio Engineering Society
        78
        Standards Committee Chair
        79
        ​
        80
        phone:  +1 (763) 493-5835
        81
        email:      <A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">bco at aes.org</A>
        82
        web:    <A HREF="http://www.aes.org/standards/">http://www.aes.org/standards/</A>
        83
        ​
        84
        </PRE>
        85
        ​
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        ​
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        ​
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           <H1>[SC-04-08] AES-X219 Clarifications</H1>
        19
            <B>David Josephson</B> 
        20
            <A HREF="mailto:sc-04-08%40standards.aes.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BSC-04-08%5D%20AES-X219%20Clarifications&In-Reply-To=%3C54612DC9.7000600%40josephson.com%3E" TITLE="[SC-04-08] AES-X219 Clarifications">dlj at josephson.com
        21
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        22
            <I>Mon Nov 10 14:27:37 MST 2014</I>
        23
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        37
        <PRE>On 11/10/2014 1:18 PM, Bruce C. Olson wrote:
        38
        ><i> On Monday, November 10, 2014 9:42 AM David Josephson wrote:
        39
        </I>><i>
        40
        </I>><i> On 11/10/14 6:57 AM, John Woodgate wrote:
        41
        </I>><i>
        42
        </I>>><i> In message <<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">777410D0-DB5F-430E-9D4D-3C698AB425F2 at aes.org</A>>, dated Mon,
        43
        </I>>><i> 10 Nov 2014, markyonge <<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">mark.yonge at aes.org</A>> writes:
        44
        </I>>><i>
        45
        </I>>>><i> That project already exists as AES-X219. Current scope reads: "to
        46
        </I>>>><i> specify a method of measurement for frequency and impulse response of
        47
        </I>>>><i> sound systems in auditoria." Contributions welcome.
        48
        </I>>><i>
        49
        </I>>><i> OK, I agree with what you say in the bulk of your message. There is a
        50
        </I>>><i> lack of clarity as to where the roll-off is generated.
        51
        </I>>><i>
        52
        </I>>><i> I noted X-219, but that was started, I think, before all that recent
        53
        </I>>><i> clamour, and it seemed necessary to ask SC-04-08 whether it still
        54
        </I>>><i> agrees to the two *separate* tasks: x-215 - helping SMPTE **on their
        55
        </I>>><i> terms** and x-216 - making a new, technically-correct and up-to-date
        56
        </I>>><i> document **on AESSC terms**. How SMPTE reacts to x-216 is up to SMPTE.
        57
        </I>><i>
        58
        </I>><i> AES-X219 could be a huge undertaking if done properly. As with most
        59
        </I>><i> standards efforts, the challenge is to interest expert participants enough
        60
        </I>><i> to inspire them to do the work. Nothing has been uploaded to the documents
        61
        </I>><i> page on this project since it was proposed in early 2013.
        62
        </I>><i>
        63
        </I>><i> [[BCO]] Actually Eddy Brixen uploaded NT acou 108 on 39 Mar 2013 to be used
        64
        </I>><i> as a basis for AES-X219. We need a task leader and for folks to identify the
        65
        </I>><i> following:
        66
        </I>><i>    1) Clause to Retain with only editorial changes
        67
        </I>><i>    2) Clauses to Remove
        68
        </I>><i>    3) Clauses to Improve
        69
        </I>><i>    4) Clauses to Add
        70
        </I>><i>
        71
        </I>><i> I urge the group to propose items 1 and 2, suggest changes for 3, and
        72
        </I>><i> propose wording for 4.
        73
        </I>
        74
        According to the status of projects report at
        75
        <A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/standards/sc_projects.cfm?ID=91">https://secure.aes.org/standards/sc_projects.cfm?ID=91</A> Eddy's upload of 
        76
        the NT ACOU 108 method is in connection with AES-X218. If they are the 
        77
        same project, either X218 or X219 should be retired. I believe that X218 
        78
        is about review of the Nordtest standard, and X219 is about development 
        79
        of a new standard. The scopes are broad and overlap to some extent.
        80
        ​
        81
        David Josephson
        82
        Chair, SC-04
        83
        ​
        84
        </PRE>
        85
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           <H1>[SC-04-08] AES-X219 Clarifications</H1>
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            <B>Bharitkar, Sunil</B> 
        20
            <A HREF="mailto:sc-04-08%40standards.aes.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BSC-04-08%5D%20AES-X219%20Clarifications&In-Reply-To=%3CD0866D0F.C390%25Sunil.Bharitkar%40dolby.com%3E" TITLE="[SC-04-08] AES-X219 Clarifications">sunil.bharitkar at dolby.com
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            <I>Mon Nov 10 14:32:41 MST 2014</I>
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        <PRE>Thanks Bruce. 
        38
        ​
        39
        As David rightfully points, X-219 will be a significant (time and
        40
        resources wise) undertaking to quantify objective performance with several
        41
        candidate variables in the measurement chain, as well as confirming the
        42
        results with properly done subjective tests.
        43
        ​
        44
        It would be an impactful standard if and when completed.
        45
        ​
        46
        ​
        47
        ​
        48
        --------------------------
        49
        Sunil Bharitkar, Ph. D.
        50
        Dir. of Technology, Audio
        51
        Office of the CTO
        52
        Dolby Laboratories, Inc.
        53
        <A HREF="http://www.dolby.com">http://www.dolby.com</A>
        54
        (O)+1-415-558-0283
        55
        ​
        56
        ​
        57
        ​
        58
        ​
        59
        ​
        60
        ​
        61
        ​
        62
        On 11/10/14, 1:18 PM, "Bruce C. Olson" <<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">bco at aes.org</A>> wrote:
        63
        ​
        64
        ><i>On Monday, November 10, 2014 9:42 AM David Josephson wrote:
        65
        </I>><i>
        66
        </I>><i>On 11/10/14 6:57 AM, John Woodgate wrote:
        67
        </I>><i>
        68
        </I>>><i> In message <<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">777410D0-DB5F-430E-9D4D-3C698AB425F2 at aes.org</A>>, dated Mon,
        69
        </I>>><i> 10 Nov 2014, markyonge <<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">mark.yonge at aes.org</A>> writes:
        70
        </I>>><i>
        71
        </I>>>><i> That project already exists as AES-X219. Current scope reads: "to
        72
        </I>>>><i> specify a method of measurement for frequency and impulse response of
        73
        </I>>>><i> sound systems in auditoria." Contributions welcome.
        74
        </I>>><i>
        75
        </I>>><i> OK, I agree with what you say in the bulk of your message. There is a
        76
        </I>>><i> lack of clarity as to where the roll-off is generated.
        77
        </I>>><i>
        78
        </I>>><i> I noted X-219, but that was started, I think, before all that recent
        79
        </I>>><i> clamour, and it seemed necessary to ask SC-04-08 whether it still
        80
        </I>>><i> agrees to the two *separate* tasks: x-215 - helping SMPTE **on their
        81
        </I>>><i> terms** and x-216 - making a new, technically-correct and up-to-date
        82
        </I>>><i> document **on AESSC terms**. How SMPTE reacts to x-216 is up to SMPTE.
        83
        </I>><i>
        84
        </I>><i>AES-X219 could be a huge undertaking if done properly. As with most
        85
        </I>><i>standards efforts, the challenge is to interest expert participants enough
        86
        </I>><i>to inspire them to do the work. Nothing has been uploaded to the documents
        87
        </I>><i>page on this project since it was proposed in early 2013.
        88
        </I>><i>
        89
        </I>><i>[[BCO]] Actually Eddy Brixen uploaded NT acou 108 on 39 Mar 2013 to be
        90
        </I>><i>used
        91
        </I>><i>as a basis for AES-X219. We need a task leader and for folks to identify
        92
        </I>><i>the
        93
        </I>><i>following:
        94
        </I>><i>    1) Clause to Retain with only editorial changes
        95
        </I>><i>    2) Clauses to Remove
        96
        </I>><i>    3) Clauses to Improve
        97
        </I>><i>    4) Clauses to Add
        98
        </I>><i>
        99
        </I>><i>I urge the group to propose items 1 and 2, suggest changes for 3, and
        100
        </I>><i>propose wording for 4.
        101
        </I>><i>
        102
        </I>><i>Bruce
        103
        </I>><i>
        104
        </I>><i>-- 
        105
        </I>><i>Bruce C. Olson
        106
        </I>><i>Audio Engineering Society
        107
        </I>><i>Standards Committee Chair
        108
        </I>><i>
        109
        </I>><i>phone:  +1 (763) 493-5835
        110
        </I>><i>email:      <A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">bco at aes.org</A>
        111
        </I>><i>web:    <A HREF="http://www.aes.org/standards/">http://www.aes.org/standards/</A>
        112
        </I>><i>
        113
        </I>><i>_______________________________________________
        114
        </I>><i>SC-04-08 mailing list
        115
        </I>><i><A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">SC-04-08 at standards.aes.org</A>
        116
        </I>><i><<A HREF="http://standards.aes.org/sc.cfm?ID=91">http://standards.aes.org/sc.cfm?ID=91</A>>
        117
        </I>
        118
        </PRE>
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            <B>John Woodgate</B> 
        20
            <A HREF="mailto:sc-04-08%40standards.aes.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BSC-04-08%5D%20AES-X219%20Clarifications&In-Reply-To=%3Ct5MaDzWvWTYUFwc6%40jmwa.demon.co.uk%3E" TITLE="[SC-04-08] AES-X219 Clarifications">jmw at jmwa.demon.co.uk
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            <I>Mon Nov 10 15:01:19 MST 2014</I>
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        <PRE>In message <D0866D0F.C390%<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">Sunil.Bharitkar at dolby.com</A>>, dated Mon, 10 Nov 
        38
        2014, "Bharitkar, Sunil" <<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">sunil.bharitkar at dolby.com</A>> writes:
        39
        ​
        40
        ><i>As David rightfully points, X-219 will be a significant (time and 
        41
        </I>><i>resources wise) undertaking to quantify objective performance with 
        42
        </I>><i>several candidate variables in the measurement chain, as well as 
        43
        </I>><i>confirming the results with properly done subjective tests.
        44
        </I>
        45
        Unlike for IEC standards, there is no time-scale for AES standard 
        46
        development, so it can take as long as it takes, provided it doesn't 
        47
        languish.
        48
        ><i>
        49
        </I>><i>It would be an impactful standard if and when completed.
        50
        </I>
        51
        Precisely. It would be well worth doing. In fact a cynic would say hat 
        52
        if we can't do it, we don't understand the subject.
        53
        -- 
        54
        OOO - Own Opinions Only. With best wishes. See www.jmwa.demon.co.uk
        55
        Quid faciamus nisi sit?
        56
        John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK
        57
        ​
        58
        </PRE>
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            <B>John Woodgate</B> 
        20
            <A HREF="mailto:sc-04-08%40standards.aes.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BSC-04-08%5D%20AES-X219%20Clarifications&In-Reply-To=%3C35scD7XveTYUFwe8%40jmwa.demon.co.uk%3E" TITLE="[SC-04-08] AES-X219 Clarifications">jmw at jmwa.demon.co.uk
        21
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            <I>Mon Nov 10 15:09:51 MST 2014</I>
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        <PRE>In message <007801cffd2b$d4d602d0$7e820870$@aes.org>, dated Mon, 10 Nov 
        38
        2014, Bruce C. Olson <<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">bco at aes.org</A>> writes:
        39
        ​
        40
        ><i>[[BCO]] Actually Eddy Brixen uploaded NT acou 108 on 39 Mar 2013 to be 
        41
        </I>><i>used as a basis for AES-X219. We need a task leader and for folks to 
        42
        </I>><i>identify the following:
        43
        </I>><i>       1) Clause to Retain with only editorial changes
        44
        </I>><i>       2) Clauses to Remove
        45
        </I>><i>       3) Clauses to Improve
        46
        </I>><i>       4) Clauses to Add
        47
        </I>><i>
        48
        </I>><i>I urge the group to propose items 1 and 2, suggest changes for 3, and 
        49
        </I>><i>propose wording for 4.
        50
        </I>
        51
        Agreed. I can't look at it this week, but unless I forget, I probably 
        52
        can next week. But I don't claim expertise in this subject.
        53
        -- 
        54
        OOO - Own Opinions Only. With best wishes. See www.jmwa.demon.co.uk
        55
        Quid faciamus nisi sit?
        56
        John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK
        57
        ​
        58
        </PRE>
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            <B>John Woodgate</B> 
        20
            <A HREF="mailto:sc-04-08%40standards.aes.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BSC-04-08%5D%20AES-X219%20Clarifications&In-Reply-To=%3C4pYfHSX%2BbTYUFw%24b%40jmwa.demon.co.uk%3E" TITLE="[SC-04-08] AES-X219 Clarifications">jmw at jmwa.demon.co.uk
        21
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            <I>Mon Nov 10 15:06:54 MST 2014</I>
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        <PRE>In message <<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">54612DC9.7000600 at josephson.com</A>>, dated Mon, 10 Nov 2014, 
        38
        David Josephson <<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">dlj at josephson.com</A>> writes:
        39
        ​
        40
        ><i>According to the status of projects report at
        41
        </I>><i><A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/standards/sc_projects.cfm?ID=91">https://secure.aes.org/standards/sc_projects.cfm?ID=91</A> Eddy's upload of 
        42
        </I>><i>the NT ACOU 108 method is in connection with AES-X218. If they are the 
        43
        </I>><i>same project, either X218 or X219 should be retired.
        44
        </I>
        45
        It might be premature to do that.
        46
        ​
        47
        ><i>I believe that X218 is about review of the Nordtest standard,
        48
        </I>
        49
        If that review is very favourable, an AES standard might 'fall out' of 
        50
        the review work. But the Nordtest standard is not exactly new, so it 
        51
        might be necessary to develop a standard derived only in a minority part 
        52
        form the Nordtest, so that would be X219.
        53
        ​
        54
        ><i>and X219 is about development of a new standard. The scopes are broad 
        55
        </I>><i>and overlap to some extent.
        56
        </I>
        57
        That's not a problem if we can agree on the above. We don't need to make 
        58
        a decision on X219 until we have the outcome of X218. Horse first, then 
        59
        cart.
        60
        -- 
        61
        OOO - Own Opinions Only. With best wishes. See www.jmwa.demon.co.uk
        62
        Quid faciamus nisi sit?
        63
        John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK
        64
        ​
        65
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           <H1>[SC-04-08] AES-X219 Clarifications</H1>
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            <B>David Josephson</B> 
        20
            <A HREF="mailto:sc-04-08%40standards.aes.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BSC-04-08%5D%20AES-X219%20Clarifications&In-Reply-To=%3C54614243.2060109%40josephson.com%3E" TITLE="[SC-04-08] AES-X219 Clarifications">dlj at josephson.com
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            <I>Mon Nov 10 15:54:59 MST 2014</I>
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        <PRE>On 11/10/2014 2:01 PM, John Woodgate wrote:
        38
        ​
        39
        ><i> In message <D0866D0F.C390%<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">Sunil.Bharitkar at dolby.com</A>>, dated Mon, 10 Nov
        40
        </I>><i> 2014, "Bharitkar, Sunil" <<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">sunil.bharitkar at dolby.com</A>> writes:
        41
        </I>><i>
        42
        </I>>><i> As David rightfully points, X-219 will be a significant (time and
        43
        </I>>><i> resources wise) undertaking to quantify objective performance with
        44
        </I>>><i> several candidate variables in the measurement chain, as well as
        45
        </I>>><i> confirming the results with properly done subjective tests.
        46
        </I>><i>
        47
        </I>><i> Unlike for IEC standards, there is no time-scale for AES standard
        48
        </I>><i> development, so it can take as long as it takes, provided it doesn't
        49
        </I>><i> languish.
        50
        </I>>><i>
        51
        </I>>><i> It would be an impactful standard if and when completed.
        52
        </I>><i>
        53
        </I>><i> Precisely. It would be well worth doing. In fact a cynic would say hat
        54
        </I>><i> if we can't do it, we don't understand the subject.
        55
        </I>
        56
        Another cynic would say that if we think we can do it as presently cast, 
        57
        we don't understand the subject.
        58
        ​
        59
        Without a concerted effort to break this into manageable pieces, it will 
        60
        not progress. While there is no mandated time-scale, there's also no 
        61
        point maintaining a project that no one is working on.
        62
        ​
        63
        As I understand the intent, we want to define a method for measuring the 
        64
        impulse response of a system in a room. Yes, we can measure the response 
        65
        at a point in the room, what good is that? Do we want the average 
        66
        response of the room? Do we want to know the standard deviation -- and 
        67
        in what parameter -- of a randomly selected set of places in the room? I 
        68
        can think of some useful things to do to improve the common 
        69
        understanding in a generalized case, but this does not speak to the 
        70
        needs of the TC-SDCTV. Particularly if we want to address finer details 
        71
        like group delay scatter degrading intelligibility, we need to know what 
        72
        information is required.
        73
        ​
        74
        The AESSC process works when a group of people have a similar goal and 
        75
        want to reach consensus on *a* (not necessarily *the*) common method for 
        76
        reaching it. Perhaps those closer to the cinema sound design world can 
        77
        define what is desired.
        78
        ​
        79
        David Josephson
        80
        Chair, SC-04
        81
        </PRE>
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           <H1>[SC-04-08] AES-X219 Clarifications</H1>
        19
            <B>John Woodgate</B> 
        20
            <A HREF="mailto:sc-04-08%40standards.aes.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BSC-04-08%5D%20AES-X219%20Clarifications&In-Reply-To=%3CPClidJbIqbYUFwaj%40jmwa.demon.co.uk%3E" TITLE="[SC-04-08] AES-X219 Clarifications">jmw at jmwa.demon.co.uk
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            <I>Tue Nov 11 00:28:08 MST 2014</I>
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        <PRE>In message <<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">54614243.2060109 at josephson.com</A>>, dated Mon, 10 Nov 2014, 
        38
        David Josephson <<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">dlj at josephson.com</A>> writes:
        39
        ​
        40
        ><i>Another cynic would say that if we think we can do it as presently 
        41
        </I>><i>cast, we don't understand the subject.
        42
        </I>
        43
        That's a matter for SMPTE. We either accept that they want an interim 
        44
        solution, however imperfect, or we withdraw our assistance.
        45
        ><i>
        46
        </I>><i>Without a concerted effort to break this into manageable pieces, it 
        47
        </I>><i>will not progress. While there is no mandated time-scale, there's also 
        48
        </I>><i>no point maintaining a project that no one is working on.
        49
        </I>
        50
        Of course, but I thought we had manageable pieces - x218 and x219.
        51
        ><i>
        52
        </I>><i>As I understand the intent, we want to define a method for measuring 
        53
        </I>><i>the impulse response of a system in a room. Yes, we can measure the 
        54
        </I>><i>response at a point in the room, what good is that?
        55
        </I>
        56
        It's a start. Without that we cannot progress.
        57
        ><i>Do we want the average response of the room?
        58
        </I>
        59
        Almost certainly not. Such averages hide a multitude of sins.
        60
        ​
        61
        ><i>Do we want to know the standard deviation -- and in what parameter -- 
        62
        </I>><i>of a randomly selected set of places in the room?
        63
        </I>
        64
        It would be valuable.
        65
        ​
        66
        ><i>I can think of some useful things to do to improve the common 
        67
        </I>><i>understanding in a generalized case, but this does not speak to the 
        68
        </I>><i>needs of the TC-SDCTV.
        69
        </I>
        70
        No, with respect you are mixing up the projects. Assisting SMPTE is one, 
        71
        limited project, under SMPTE terms of reference. x218 and x219 are 
        72
        purely AESSC projects, not tied to SMPTE.
        73
        ​
        74
        ><i>Particularly if we want to address finer details like group delay 
        75
        </I>><i>scatter degrading intelligibility, we need to know what information is 
        76
        </I>><i>required.
        77
        </I>
        78
        These are all very good questions but they are for x219. The plan was, 
        79
        and I suppose still is, is first to look at Eddie's Nordtest document to 
        80
        see if it provides a way forward and to what extent. If it doesn't, or 
        81
        only to a very limited extent, then we have to work on x219, avoiding 
        82
        the temptation to try to make it the 'ultimate solution for all time' by 
        83
        including very difficult things like the influence of group delay on 
        84
        speech intelligibility. I have some thoughts about that, but they are 
        85
        for a different message.
        86
        ><i>
        87
        </I>><i>The AESSC process works when a group of people have a similar goal and 
        88
        </I>><i>want to reach consensus on *a* (not necessarily *the*) common method 
        89
        </I>><i>for reaching it. Perhaps those closer to the cinema sound design world 
        90
        </I>><i>can define what is desired.
        91
        </I>
        92
        x218 and x219 are not tied to cinema; they are general.
        93
        -- 
        94
        OOO - Own Opinions Only. With best wishes. See www.jmwa.demon.co.uk
        95
        Quid faciamus nisi sit?
        96
        John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK
        97
        ​
        98
        </PRE>
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