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 <H1>[SC-04-08] AES-X215 B-Chain level measurements</H1>
 Brian Long 
 <A HREF="mailto:sc-04-08%40standards.aes.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BSC-04-08%5D%20AES-X215%20B-Chain%20level%20measurements&In-Reply-To=%3CCE1038CB.AB68%25blong%40skysound.com%3E" TITLE="[SC-04-08] AES-X215 B-Chain level measurements">blong at skysound.com
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 Sat Jul 20 14:02:15 MDT 2013
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<PRE>It occurs to me that all in this group might not be familiar with the
general layout of commercial cinema vs post production facilities.

Post production facilities are far more complex but generally they have a
number of sources that then feed a variable architecture system such as a
sound web or similar that then gets passed onto amplification and
loudspeakers.  The majority of the transport mechanism is digital via a
combination of AES and MADI.  Now this is a a gross simplification but I
think it will suffice for now.

Commercial cinemas in the age of D Cinema and even before had fewer
sources.  Generally primary projection devices (Film or D Cinema
projectors) and a second video projector for alternative content.  In the
age of D Cinema we are seeing in some facilities a move to a single
projector.  In general the playback sources would be audio on film, or
today an audio stream from a server.  There may also be secondary content
that comes in from a satellite TV service or other devices.

These sources are fed to a "cinema processor".  The cinema processor is an
all in one devices that handles source selection, routing, loudspeaker
management, volume control etc.  The major players in this market
currently are Dolby, DataSat, QSC, and USL.  Typically most cinemas do not
have any hardware for loudspeaker management outside of their cinema
processor.  Certain turnkey solutions like those offered by QSC have
loudspeaker management functions in both the cinema processor and
loudspeaker amplifiers.

After the cinema processor the audio is sent onto the amplifiers and
loudspeakers.

Until recently all that was offered in these all in one cinema processors
was third octave EQ.

It is very rare to see outboard third octaves.  Typically this is found in
cinemas whose loudspeaker system was last upgraded in the 1990s.

I would encourage members of the group to look at the cinema processor
offerings from the manufacturers listed above and any that I may have
omitted to see what is on the market and what the feature sets are.

Regards,

Brian Long

On 7/20/13 11:01 AM, "John Woodgate" <<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">jmw at jmwa.demon.co.uk</A>> wrote:

>In message 
><<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">CAEEhACkEfry9wA2hmEk4G76qRVQR+JybMkud4KyGFrkN0aGyyg at mail.gmail.com</A>>,
>dated Sat, 20 Jul 2013, philip newell <<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">philiprnewell at gmail.com</A>> writes:
>
>> The non-linearity referred to the sources. Evidently I missed out a
>>comma after 'controlled'!
>
>I think I misread it. Anyway, thank you for prompt response.
>
> What can we use instead of third-octave EQ?
>-- 
>OOO - Own Opinions Only. See www.jmwa.demon.co.uk
>Why is the stapler always empty just when you want it?
>
>John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK
>_______________________________________________
>SC-04-08 mailing list
><A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">SC-04-08 at standards.aes.org</A>
><<A HREF="http://standards.aes.org/sc.cfm?ID=91">http://standards.aes.org/sc.cfm?ID=91</A>>

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 <H1>[SC-04-08] AES-X215 B-Chain level measurements</H1>
 Brian Long 
 <A HREF="mailto:sc-04-08%40standards.aes.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BSC-04-08%5D%20AES-X215%20B-Chain%20level%20measurements&In-Reply-To=%3CCE103C66.ADF8%25blong%40skysound.com%3E" TITLE="[SC-04-08] AES-X215 B-Chain level measurements">blong at skysound.com
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<PRE>All I would like to remind you that the current focus is to make do with
what we have while we get together a roadmap for the future.

I agree with everything Philip says but it is beyond scope of this AHG and
liaison.  We are trying to bring a bit more consistency and education to
the market to tide things over.

brian

On 7/20/13 6:50 AM, "philip newell" <<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">philiprnewell at gmail.com</A>> wrote:

>Dear Brian (Long),
>
> I think that the only viable way is to try
>to
>work to the best standards. As you know, for over 15 years I have been
>building dubbing theatres with 'high quality' music-recording monitors and
>with heavily damped acoustics. Yes, simultaneously, other dubbing theatres
>have been built in the same cities with 'average' cinema loudspeakers, but
>I still content that the fairest average of all is to work with the best
>sound quality that you can achieve. The myriad of ways that quality can be
>compromised makes averaging 'down' virtually meaningless.
>
> Trying to mix music so that it sounds as good
>as it can whilst listening via ear buds in a noisy street only renders the
>mixes disappointing for just about everybody else. This sort of practice
>is
>severely compromising the music business.
>
> Many of us still consider that the best way
>for standardisation is to define the minimum performance requirements from
>the sources (i.e. loudspeakers plus screens) and then look at reasonably
>controlling any problematical aspects of the rooms. One-third-octave
>equalisation has virtually nothing to offer in this philosophy.
>
> If the room(s) in which you are carrying out
>your tests, at Skywalker, are decently acoustically controlled and have
>reasonably accurate sources (good transient response, smooth spectral
>response, and low levels of non-linear distortion) together with adequate
>directivity for the size of audience to be covered, then I think that you
>tests will be valid for the the proposed tests.
>
> Yes, it *is* important to take care of the
>details, but somebody in a recent SMPTE meeting did bring up the point of
>'perfect' being the enemy of good. We can discuss the semantics till the
>sun swallows us up, but we have some big issues to test, and I think that
>the conditions which you are describing at Skywalker are well suited to
>getting the principal questions answered. It is the *big* issues that will
>set the scene for a major improvement in cinema sound. We can get to the
>subtleties later (if necessary). I think that what you are proposing to do
>is both valuable and realistic.
>
> It would also be revealing to get peoples
>impressions of a television film, for example, which had not been mixed
>with the X-curve, reproduced via your 'flat-from-the-box' screen
>loudspeakers, without any equalisation other than that necessary for
>compensating for the 2 pi mounting conditions and any screen loss, which
>could give an idea of the flavour of a non-X-curve soundtrack.
>
> Also, of course, the response of a soundtrack
>will not be the same in all seating positions and in all rooms. This can
>never be, but, if the sources are accurate, the ears and brains will
>compensate for much of this (as Floyd Toole has pointed out on innumerable
>occasions). Anyhow, this is the case with live orchestras in concert
>halls.
>The Berlin Philharmonic still sounds like the Berlin Philharmonic, and The
>London Symphony Orchestra still sounds like the London Symphony Orchestra,
>no matter in which hall they are playing nor where a listener is sitting.
>The rooms cannot change one to sound like the other. The ears recognise
>the
>sources, and so these must remain the same, even in cinemas, if
>consistency
>is the goal. Different equalisations, other than for the desired
>adjustment
>of relatively minimum-phase effects, will change the sources, and hence
>will act *against* room-to-room compatibility of the perceived sound.
>
> Despite the fact that film soundtracks are
>not
>all of 'natural' sources, the directors'/sound-designers' decisions about
>how things *should* sound will be more consistent if the sources are
>relatively similar. Their common reference must be the sources, even if
>the
>sounds are 'artificial'.
>
> I am very much looking forwards to the
>results
>of your tests. We can nit-pick everything, but I think that you are on a
>useful track.
>
>
> Best wishes,
>
>
> Philip
>
>
>
>
>
>On 20 July 2013 01:07, Brian Long <<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">blong at skysound.com</A>> wrote:
>
>> The point about being consistent with the eventual theater has been and
>> continues to be an often discussed topic.
>>
>> To approach the issue in a way that should be consistent with the
>>eventual
>> theater is, one would assume, to first have a playback environment that
>> conforms to existing standards and is in good working order.
>>
>> Unfortunately this is not often the case and often one will find a
>>theater
>> calibration outside of the calibration window by a large magnitude for a
>> number of reasons.
>>
>> So the question then is consistent with what? The bulk of commercial
>> theaters have a great deal of inconsistencies whether it is system
>> differences, acoustic differences, or arbitrary daily operation
>>policies.
>>
>> Programs like THX were successful in a limited scope and at least
>>brought
>> a formal window of performance to spaces.
>>
>> I will say that the bulk of equipment on the screening room I tend to
>>can
>> be found in commercial theaters, granted the theaters it is found in are
>> not the majority of theaters.
>>
>> So should we be consistent with the best, the worst, or a middle
>>ground?
>> If we are not consistent with the best then what would that mean when
>> material is played back in the best? Might people hear things that were
>> not revealed on a lesser system, a system that is run 9 dB under
>>reference
>> level, or in a room with lots of background noise? Surely this would
>>not
>> be desirable. What then is the difference as you move down to lesser
>> systems/rooms? Is the difference just EQ? Absolutely not. A number of
>> nuisance variables regarding system design, integration, daily operation
>> practices, and performance must be accounted for before one can even
>>begin
>> to talk about EQ as the problem.
>>
>> So the question is be consistent with the best (and most likel...

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 <H1>[SC-04-08] AES-X215 B-Chain level measurements</H1>
 Brian Long 
 <A HREF="mailto:sc-04-08%40standards.aes.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BSC-04-08%5D%20AES-X215%20B-Chain%20level%20measurements&In-Reply-To=%3CCE103CC7.ADFD%25blong%40skysound.com%3E" TITLE="[SC-04-08] AES-X215 B-Chain level measurements">blong at skysound.com
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<PRE>Hello All,

I have noticed that this thread now includes both the SMPTE and AES
groups.  I think there are procedural issues with that and I have made
mention of this to both SMPTE and AES managers to clarify.

For those who are unaware the SMPTE testing group that was looking at
different theaters took a number of measurements including NC, RT, and
others to fully characterize the room.  The items David mentioned have
been discussed as part of the SMPTE efforts and are planned to be
addressed in the next committee's work on "next generation" standards that
will also have to include the new advanced multi-channel formats.

Regards,

Brian Long

On 7/20/13 6:02 AM, "david murphy" <<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">dmurphy at krix.com.au</A>> wrote:

>Hi Brian, John,
>yes I think you guys have hit the nails on the head(s). And since there
>is not much of interest on the TV tonight, here goes!
>
>I am given to understand that movie sound tracks are a complete
>fabrication, in that hardly any of the sound actually took place when the
>images were shot - it is all (re)created afterwards and mixed together in
>an acoustic environment which is probably the same for a particular film,
>but could be quite different for different films.
>So the chances of a selection of films (or even the same one) sounding
>the same in a well controlled playback situation are not large, given
>that the acoustic and playback systems used to create them were not the
>same, and many of the sounds and effects are not natural and have no live
>reference for comparison.
>
>So.......
>Step 1 - develop a specification for mixing /dubbing suites - size,
>aspect ratio, acoustic treatment for reflections and reverberation time
>(if that is meaningful in smaller spaces), background noise, etc, such
>that the same film 'sounds' the same and gives the same or similar
>experience to a panel of experienced listeners in the different venues.
>Some of the present techniques of acoustics for measuring direct sound,
>lateral reflections, echoes, RASTI, etc could be useful in this regard if
>research shows (perhaps already has shown) how they correlate with the
>perception and rating by experienced listeners. A sub-set is a
>specification for the B-Chain equipment such that the frequency response
>is 'flat' (another procedure to be standardised) and the max SPL is
>achievable with a specified level of distortion. Specifying a reference
>level and measurement procedure for the SPL is part of this.
>Step 2 - develop a (less onerous) specification for commercial cinemas
>for the same parameters as the mixing and dubbing suites, graded maybe
>premium, normal, and 'no comment' or 'not assessed', perhaps relaxing
>slightly some of the requirements such as max SPL, and the acoustic
>measurement numbers to accommodate commercial reality.
>Step 3 - develop a relatively quick and simple method of carrying out
>these measurements by technicians in the field.
>
>Step 0 - somehow get the cinema designed by acousticians and the B-Chain
>equipment specified such that the system will meet the appropriate level
>of specification affordable by the client.
>
>And we shouldn't forget the non trivial problem of measuring the array of
>surround loudspeakers and setting them to some specified frequency
>response. And/or single surrounds individually addressable as in the
>proposed 3D sound systems. How to find the reference axis of black
>coloured loudspeakers in a dark cinema with only a few working lights in
>order to position the microphone is just one of the challenges :-)
>
>I have just written and next week will present a paper at the SMPTE 2013
>Australian Conference "Electro-acoustic Measurements on cinema B-Chains
>in Australia. I used MLSSA to measure and set the direct sound from the
>screen systems to be flat to about 10kHz (some of these were old bi-amped
>2-way systems and I didn't want to break them!), and measured and fine
>tuned the frequency response using the AcoustX D2 system of RTA pink
>noise and spatially averaged microphones. I have had to sign a copyright
>to SMPTE form, but will seek permission at the conference to distribute
>it to this committee.
>
>I found it to be a complex procedure and not easy to do, and I have been
>using MLSSA to measure loudspeakers for more than 15 years, and have done
>upwards of 100 cinemas using AcoustX D2. I have found my knowledge of
>loudspeaker behaviour, polar patterns, and acoustics in general to be
>extremely useful - knowledge that a technician in the field is very
>unlikely to have.
>
>anyway, my contribution to the debate.
>best regards to all
>David Murphy
>
>
>________________________________________
>From: <A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">sc-04-08-bounces at standards.aes.org</A>
>[<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">sc-04-08-bounces at standards.aes.org</A>] On Behalf Of Brian McCarty
>[<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">bmccarty at coralseastudios.com</A>]
>Sent: Saturday, 20 July 2013 7:25 PM
>To: Working group on Measurement and equalization of sound systems in
>rooms
>Cc: <A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">25css-calibration at lists.smpte.org</A>
>Subject: Re: [SC-04-08] AES-X215 B-Chain level measurements
>
>John,
>
>I laughed spontaneously at your comment "What should be made consistent
>with what?" This is the core issue at the heart of the discussion, and
>yet many are running in circles chasing after mythical "solutions"
>without understanding the problems.
>
>The film industry has operated with an audio goal that no other aspect of
>the audio industry has set - "to make the theaters sound the same as the
>dubbing room".
>
>But as two rounds of recent testing have shown, none of the DUBBING rooms
>even sound the same, with many of them divergent at critical frequencies
>by 10dB or more. And as the complaints continue to stream in from the
>movie theaters, these operators are rebelling against the overly-loud
>films that are now being shipped to them.
>
>There has been testing proposed to do, in part, subjective listening of
>soundtracks being generated by these same dubbing rooms! The oft quoted
>Dr. Toole mantra "garbage in - garbage out" springs to mind.
>
>Then John you zero in on the other issue that's being ignored. There
>cannot be any "consistent" in this context because there are no standards
>that define the playback environment. Some testing has now been proposed
>for the movie theaters, even though there is no defined standard for
>acoustical performance. SMPTE S202 doesn't define the playback space.
>THX, which was a partial attempt to craft a standard for the playback
>environment, was unsuccessful in doing so and it fell into disuse.
>
>And that's exactly what this AES Standards group is established to do.
>Seeking "consistency" in audio reproduction requires first defining what
>parameters need to be understood. Some are having difficulty
>understanding the relationship of cart:...

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 <H1>[SC-04-08] Workgroup confidentiality</H1>
 Ben Kok 
 <A HREF="mailto:sc-04-08%40standards.aes.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BSC-04-08%5D%20Workgroup%20confidentiality&In-Reply-To=%3C%21%26%21AAAAAAAAAAAYAAAAAAAAAGkzESGDq6RFkqLbsD37d8UigQAAEAAAAONzlbBR8sJCmGp9kL6KnZYBAAAAAA%3D%3D%40me.com%3E" TITLE="[SC-04-08] Workgroup confidentiality">ben.kok at me.com
 </A> 
 Mon Jul 22 14:06:14 MDT 2013
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<PRE>All,

Please be reminded that that conversations in AES Standards Committee
meetings - including communications on this e-mail reflector - are
confidential.

For this reason, mails sent to the reflector should not be cc'd to any other
party, not even our SMPTE liaison partners.

When a message accidently has been cc'd to someone else, please limit
further damage by just using "reply" and refrain from "reply to all".

Thanks,

Ben Kok

AES SC-04-08 WG Chair.

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 <H1>[SC-04-08] Workgroup confidentiality</H1>
 John Woodgate 
 <A HREF="mailto:sc-04-08%40standards.aes.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BSC-04-08%5D%20Workgroup%20confidentiality&In-Reply-To=%3CYQu7OjOgUZ7RFw16%40jmwa.demon.co.uk%3E" TITLE="[SC-04-08] Workgroup confidentiality">jmw at jmwa.demon.co.uk
 </A> 
 Mon Jul 22 14:25:04 MDT 2013
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<PRE>In message 
<!&!AAAAAAAAAAAYAAAAAAAAAGkzESGDq6RFkqLbsD37d8UigQAAEAAAAONzlbBR8sJCmGp9k
L6KnZYBAAAAAA==@me.com>, dated Mon, 22 Jul 2013, Ben Kok 
<<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">ben.kok at me.com</A>> writes:

>or this reason, mails sent to the reflector should not be cc'd to any 
>other party, not even our SMPTE liaison partners.

How can we have a properly working liaison without freely exchanging 
ideas?
-- 
OOO - Own Opinions Only. See www.jmwa.demon.co.uk
Why is the stapler always empty just when you want it?

John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK
</PRE>

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 <H1>[SC-04-08] Workgroup confidentiality</H1>
 David Josephson 
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 Mon Jul 22 14:43:01 MDT 2013
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<PRE>On 7/22/2013 1:25 PM, John Woodgate wrote:
> dated Mon, 22 Jul 2013, Ben Kok <<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">ben.kok at me.com</A>> writes:
>
>> or this reason, mails sent to the reflector should not be cc'd to any 
>> other party, not even our SMPTE liaison partners.
>
> How can we have a properly working liaison without freely exchanging 
> ideas?

Perhaps this needs to be addressed with a formal policy by the SC, if it 
isn't already. I can understand why one might want to have some liaisons 
at arm's length (such as with IEC TC-100) and provide only a report to 
the liaison with the WG's recommendations, without its deliberations. 
But, I agree that in the current case having an open channel with SMPTE 
during the discussions will be helpful to both groups.

--
David Josephson
Chair, SC-04
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 <H1>[SC-04-08] Workgroup confidentiality</H1>
 Brian McCarty 
 <A HREF="mailto:sc-04-08%40standards.aes.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BSC-04-08%5D%20Workgroup%20confidentiality&In-Reply-To=%3C7E33DB9E-59D2-4ACF-9952-0D285A5ED689%40coralseastudios.com%3E" TITLE="[SC-04-08] Workgroup confidentiality">bmccarty at coralseastudios.com
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 Mon Jul 22 14:44:16 MDT 2013
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<PRE>An interesting conundrum. We certainly don't want the SMPTE to find out how audio REALLY works. . .

Brian McCarty

On Jul 23, 2013, at 6:25 AM, John Woodgate <<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">jmw at jmwa.demon.co.uk</A>> wrote:

> In message <!&!AAAAAAAAAAAYAAAAAAAAAGkzESGDq6RFkqLbsD37d8UigQAAEAAAAONzlbBR8sJCmGp9k
> L6KnZYBAAAAAA==@me.com>, dated Mon, 22 Jul 2013, Ben Kok <<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">ben.kok at me.com</A>> writes:
> 
>> or this reason, mails sent to the reflector should not be cc'd to any other party, not even our SMPTE liaison partners.
> 
> How can we have a properly working liaison without freely exchanging ideas?
> -- 
> OOO - Own Opinions Only. See www.jmwa.demon.co.uk
> Why is the stapler always empty just when you want it?
> 
> John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK
> _______________________________________________
> SC-04-08 mailing list
> <A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">SC-04-08 at standards.aes.org</A>
> <<A HREF="http://standards.aes.org/sc.cfm?ID=91">http://standards.aes.org/sc.cfm?ID=91</A>>

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 <H1>[SC-04-08] Workgroup confidentiality</H1>
 John Woodgate 
 <A HREF="mailto:sc-04-08%40standards.aes.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BSC-04-08%5D%20Workgroup%20confidentiality&In-Reply-To=%3CInkPjZQLqZ7RFw0y%40jmwa.demon.co.uk%3E" TITLE="[SC-04-08] Workgroup confidentiality">jmw at jmwa.demon.co.uk
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 Mon Jul 22 14:48:11 MDT 2013
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<PRE>In message <<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">7E33DB9E-59D2-4ACF-9952-0D285A5ED689 at coralseastudios.com</A>>, 
dated Tue, 23 Jul 2013, Brian McCarty <<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">bmccarty at coralseastudios.com</A>> 
writes:

>An interesting conundrum. We certainly don't want the SMPTE to find 
>out how audio REALLY works. . .

You mean, you actually KNOW?? Fantastic!
-- 
OOO - Own Opinions Only. See www.jmwa.demon.co.uk
Why is the stapler always empty just when you want it?

John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK
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 John Murray 
 <A HREF="mailto:sc-04-08%40standards.aes.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BSC-04-08%5D%20Workgroup%20confidentiality&In-Reply-To=%3CDD031DF2-4554-4695-8560-19FCE9319259%40optimumss.com%3E" TITLE="[SC-04-08] Workgroup confidentiality">john at optimumss.com
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 Mon Jul 22 17:43:00 MDT 2013
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<PRE>Gentlemen,

Imagine how confused David Weinberg and I are since we are both in all three EQ Standards committees: the AES, SMPTE & InfoComm.

The e-mail saturation alone.......Yikes!

To the point, I have not CC'ed or transferred any written documentation or e-mails between the groups at all and kept each groups' information compartmentalized.  Only if requested officially would I cross-pollenate anything other than my own opinion or ideas.  I think that strictly verbal crosstalk should be encouraged as eventually a common standard approach would benefit all industries involved.  It would be nice to have official guidelines to follow from all three groups, though.

BTW, if the AES would like to know how video projectors work, I'm sure either SMPTE or InfoComm would oblige  ; > )

JM

On Jul 22, 2013, at 4:33 PM, philip newell <<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">philiprnewell at gmail.com</A>> wrote:

> Dear David,
> 
> I was mentioning in an e-mail to Brian Long, a few hours
> ago, that it is getting very confusing for some of us who are in both
> groups to remember who said what to *us*, and *to whom *we said what.
> 
> In fact, there is a considerable number of us who are in
> both groups.
> 
> 
> Best wishes,
> 
> 
> Philip
> 
> 
> 
> On 22 July 2013 22:43, David Josephson <<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">dlj at josephson.com</A>> wrote:
> 
>> On 7/22/2013 1:25 PM, John Woodgate wrote:
>> 
>>> dated Mon, 22 Jul 2013, Ben Kok <<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">ben.kok at me.com</A>> writes:
>>> 
>>> or this reason, mails sent to the reflector should not be cc'd to any
>>>> other party, not even our SMPTE liaison partners.
>>>> 
>>> 
>>> How can we have a properly working liaison without freely exchanging
>>> ideas?
>>> 
>> 
>> Perhaps this needs to be addressed with a formal policy by the SC, if it
>> isn't already. I can understand why one might want to have some liaisons at
>> arm's length (such as with IEC TC-100) and provide only a report to the
>> liaison with the WG's recommendations, without its deliberations. But, I
>> agree that in the current case having an open channel with SMPTE during the
>> discussions will be helpful to both groups.
>> 
>> --
>> David Josephson
>> Chair, SC-04
>> 
>> ______________________________**_________________
>> SC-04-08 mailing list
>> <A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">SC-04-08 at standards.aes.org</A>
>> <<A HREF="http://standards.aes.org/sc.**cfm?ID=91<http://standards.aes.org/sc.cfm?ID=91">http://standards.aes.org/sc.**cfm?ID=91<http://standards.aes.org/sc.cfm?ID=91</A>>
>>> 
>> 
> _______________________________________________
> SC-04-08 mailing list
> <A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">SC-04-08 at standards.aes.org</A>
> <<A HREF="http://standards.aes.org/sc.cfm?ID=91">http://standards.aes.org/sc.cfm?ID=91</A>>

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 <H1>[SC-04-08] Workgroup confidentiality</H1>
 philip newell 
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 Mon Jul 22 16:33:51 MDT 2013
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<PRE>Dear David,

I was mentioning in an e-mail to Brian Long, a few hours
ago, that it is getting very confusing for some of us who are in both
groups to remember who said what to *us*, and *to whom *we said what.

In fact, there is a considerable number of us who are in
both groups.

Best wishes,

Philip

On 22 July 2013 22:43, David Josephson <<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">dlj at josephson.com</A>> wrote:

> On 7/22/2013 1:25 PM, John Woodgate wrote:
>
>> dated Mon, 22 Jul 2013, Ben Kok <<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">ben.kok at me.com</A>> writes:
>>
>> or this reason, mails sent to the reflector should not be cc'd to any
>>> other party, not even our SMPTE liaison partners.
>>>
>>
>> How can we have a properly working liaison without freely exchanging
>> ideas?
>>
>
> Perhaps this needs to be addressed with a formal policy by the SC, if it
> isn't already. I can understand why one might want to have some liaisons at
> arm's length (such as with IEC TC-100) and provide only a report to the
> liaison with the WG's recommendations, without its deliberations. But, I
> agree that in the current case having an open channel with SMPTE during the
> discussions will be helpful to both groups.
>
> --
> David Josephson
> Chair, SC-04
>
> ______________________________**_________________
> SC-04-08 mailing list
> <A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">SC-04-08 at standards.aes.org</A>
> <<A HREF="http://standards.aes.org/sc.**cfm?ID=91<http://standards.aes.org/sc.cfm?ID=91">http://standards.aes.org/sc.**cfm?ID=91<http://standards.aes.org/sc.cfm?ID=91</A>>
> >
>
</PRE>

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