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 <H1>[SC-04-08] Nonsense</H1>
 philip newell 
 <A HREF="mailto:sc-04-08%40standards.aes.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BSC-04-08%5D%20Nonsense&In-Reply-To=%3CCAEEhACk%3DsVUgGJhf%3DnkqZJAs%2BjQ6-_GgUSaWeY6nEV%2B8QRD6oQ%40mail.gmail.com%3E" TITLE="[SC-04-08] Nonsense">philiprnewell at gmail.com
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 Tue May 14 07:53:11 MDT 2013
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<PRE>Dear All,

The confusion about the X-curve is now so great that I even
found the following in the instruction manual for some Tannoy active
monitors. More mis-information, I believe, about the X-curve. There is no
way of stopping this nonsense now. The situation is rotten to the core. The
only solution seems to be the introduction of a totally new, clearly
explained and technically justifiable calibration regime.
Tannoy ACTIVE STUDIO MONITORS Owners Manual (Page 50 of
56)<<A HREF="http://www.google.es/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=15&cad=rja&ved=0CD0QFjAEOAo&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.manualslib.com%2Fmanual%2F168283%2FTannoy-Active-Studio-Monitors.html%3Fpage%3D50&ei=qBs-UZTSIIuKhQeUioGgBg&usg=AFQjCNHTpALw-hamL-JAWNnD0ghVjII5Yw&sig2=bisO_mOG1AM_b2r7a4o8dA&bvm=bv.43287494,d.ZG4">http://www.google.es/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=15&cad=rja&ved=0CD0QFjAEOAo&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.manualslib.com%2Fmanual%2F168283%2FTannoy-Active-Studio-Monitors.html%3Fpage%3D50&ei=qBs-UZTSIIuKhQeUioGgBg&usg=AFQjCNHTpALw-hamL-JAWNnD0ghVjII5Yw&sig2=bisO_mOG1AM_b2r7a4o8dA&bvm=bv.43287494,d.ZG4</A>>X
– Curves Explained
For small rooms, defined as less than 5300 cubic feet or 150 cubic meters,
ANSI/SMPTE 222M calls for a modification
of the X-curve with flat natural response to 2kHz and then a 1.5dB per
octave roll off above 2 kHz. *This curve is useful*
* *
*when mixing in a small room and playing back in a large room.*
Another variation on the curve is to begin the high-end roll off at 4 kHz
and roll off 3dB per octave instead of 1.5 per
octave.

This is total rubbish!

Does anybody have any further comment before I write to Tannoy
to ask them where they got this information from?

Best wishes,

Philip
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 <H1>[SC-04-08] Nonsense</H1>
 John Woodgate 
 <A HREF="mailto:sc-04-08%40standards.aes.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BSC-04-08%5D%20Nonsense&In-Reply-To=%3CLubfRyAIjkkRFw9F%40jmwa.demon.co.uk%3E" TITLE="[SC-04-08] Nonsense">jmw at jmwa.demon.co.uk
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 Tue May 14 08:23:04 MDT 2013
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<PRE>In message 
<CAEEhACk=sVUgGJhf=<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">nkqZJAs+jQ6-_GgUSaWeY6nEV+8QRD6oQ at mail.gmail.com</A>>, 
dated Tue, 14 May 2013, philip newell <<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">philiprnewell at gmail.com</A>> writes:

>X – Curves Explained
>For small rooms, defined as less than 5300 cubic feet or 150 cubic 
>meters, ANSI/SMPTE 222M calls for a modification
>of the X-curve with flat natural response to 2kHz and then a 1.5dB per 
>octave roll off above 2 kHz. This curve is useful
>when mixing in a small room and playing back in a large room.
>Another variation on the curve is to begin the high-end roll off at 4 
>kHz and roll off 3dB per octave instead of 1.5 per
>octave.
>
>
>             This is total rubbish!
>
>             Does anybody have any further comment before I 
>write to Tannoy to ask them where they got this information from?

You may be right, but is the Tannoy idea actually to compensate for 
high-frequency attenuation with distance in the large room by 
pre-emphasising those frequencies when mixing in the small room? I think 
a case could be made for that, but I wouldn't bet on an acquittal!
-- 
OOO - Own Opinions Only. See www.jmwa.demon.co.uk
They took me to a specialist burns unit - and made me learn 'To a haggis'.

John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK
</PRE>

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 <H1>[SC-04-08] Nonsense</H1>
 Mark Yonge 
 <A HREF="mailto:sc-04-08%40standards.aes.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BSC-04-08%5D%20Nonsense&In-Reply-To=%3C935D13F4-36CD-4602-A829-938EA27E0BF5%40aes.org%3E" TITLE="[SC-04-08] Nonsense">standards at aes.org
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 Tue May 14 08:57:28 MDT 2013
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<PRE>Dear Philip,

I understand the technical issues you mention in your note, but I have to clarify a few procedural issues. This isn't aimed particularly at you, however in a new AESSC group like SC-04-08, someone was certainly going to write a note like this, and it happens that you're the first!

Here goes:

•	SC-04-08 is a standards working group with a defined scope working on specific projects, each with a defined scope. It does not operate as an open-ended chat group. Relevant information, proposed text, and technical comment is always welcome; emotive commentary less so.

•	Please do not copy working-group correspondence to others. Send messages for the group to the email reflector only. If you feel that others should be involved in the work of SC-04-08, please invite them to read the information at <A HREF="http://www.aes.org/standards/development/membership.cfm">http://www.aes.org/standards/development/membership.cfm</A> and fill in the on-line form as appropriate.
 Why? As a member of an AES standards working group, you are bound by our confidentiality rule; discussions and drafts within the working group are held confidentially until such time as a document is formally published following our due process. This is principally to avoid public confusion with stories that may or may not have demonstrated the consensus necessary for a published document. More (much more) at <A HREF="http://www.aes.org/standards/development/rules.cfm.">http://www.aes.org/standards/development/rules.cfm.</A>

•	You can see a list of the working group members when you log into the AESSC members atrium using the login provided (should be the same as your regular AES login) and click on the link to the working group. A direct login is available at:
<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/standards/sc.cfm?ID=91">https://secure.aes.org/standards/sc.cfm?ID=91</A>

•	I fully understand why you find the information in that manual objectionable. However please bear in mind that when you write to the company, you are doing so on your own behalf and not as any kind of representative of the AESSC or its working group.

If you have any questions, on this or any other matter concerned with the work of the AESSC, please call or Skype - I'm always happy to talk.

best regards,

Mark Yonge
AES Standards Manager
and Due-Process Referee

tel: +44 1594 517200
skype: markyonge

On 2013-05-14, at 14:53, philip newell wrote:

> Dear All,
> 
> The confusion about the X-curve is now so great that I even
> found the following in the instruction manual for some Tannoy active
> monitors. More mis-information, I believe, about the X-curve. There is no
> way of stopping this nonsense now. The situation is rotten to the core. The
> only solution seems to be the introduction of a totally new, clearly
> explained and technically justifiable calibration regime.
> Tannoy ACTIVE STUDIO MONITORS Owners Manual (Page 50 of
> 56)<<A HREF="http://www.google.es/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=15&cad=rja&ved=0CD0QFjAEOAo&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.manualslib.com%2Fmanual%2F168283%2FTannoy-Active-Studio-Monitors.html%3Fpage%3D50&ei=qBs-UZTSIIuKhQeUioGgBg&usg=AFQjCNHTpALw-hamL-JAWNnD0ghVjII5Yw&sig2=bisO_mOG1AM_b2r7a4o8dA&bvm=bv.43287494,d.ZG4">http://www.google.es/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=15&cad=rja&ved=0CD0QFjAEOAo&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.manualslib.com%2Fmanual%2F168283%2FTannoy-Active-Studio-Monitors.html%3Fpage%3D50&ei=qBs-UZTSIIuKhQeUioGgBg&usg=AFQjCNHTpALw-hamL-JAWNnD0ghVjII5Yw&sig2=bisO_mOG1AM_b2r7a4o8dA&bvm=bv.43287494,d.ZG4</A>>X
> – Curves Explained
> For small rooms, defined as less than 5300 cubic feet or 150 cubic meters,
> ANSI/SMPTE 222M calls for a modification
> of the X-curve with flat natural response to 2kHz and then a 1.5dB per
> octave roll off above 2 kHz. *This curve is useful*
> * *
> *when mixing in a small room and playing back in a large room.*
> Another variation on the curve is to begin the high-end roll off at 4 kHz
> and roll off 3dB per octave instead of 1.5 per
> octave.
> 
> 
> This is total rubbish!
> 
> Does anybody have any further comment before I write to Tannoy
> to ask them where they got this information from?
> 
> 
> Best wishes,
> 
> 
> 
> Philip
> _______________________________________________
> SC-04-08 mailing list
> <A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">SC-04-08 at standards.aes.org</A>
> <<A HREF="http://standards.aes.org/sc.cfm?ID=91">http://standards.aes.org/sc.cfm?ID=91</A>>

Mark Yonge
AES Standards Manager

<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">standards at aes.org</A>
tel: +44 1594 517200
skype: markyonge

</PRE>

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 <H1>[SC-04-08] Nonsense</H1>
 John Woodgate 
 <A HREF="mailto:sc-04-08%40standards.aes.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BSC-04-08%5D%20Nonsense&In-Reply-To=%3CFv9MxXDQUlkRFwNk%40jmwa.demon.co.uk%3E" TITLE="[SC-04-08] Nonsense">jmw at jmwa.demon.co.uk
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 Tue May 14 09:15:28 MDT 2013
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<PRE>In message <<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">935D13F4-36CD-4602-A829-938EA27E0BF5 at aes.org</A>>, dated Tue, 14 
May 2013, Mark Yonge <<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">standards at aes.org</A>> writes:

>• Please do not copy working-group correspondence to others. 
>Send messages for the group to the email reflector only.

That isn't very sensible. All it does is force people to send the same 
message twice; once to the reflector and once to everyone else that the 
sender wishes to inform (probably also telling them he has sent the 
message to AESSC as well). I can't see that there is a real 
confidentiality issue.

Even the secret society known as BSI doesn't impose such a condition on 
its correspondents.
-- 
OOO - Own Opinions Only. See www.jmwa.demon.co.uk
They took me to a specialist burns unit - and made me learn 'To a haggis'.

John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK
</PRE>

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 <H1>[SC-04-08] Nonsense</H1>
 Mark Yonge 
 <A HREF="mailto:sc-04-08%40standards.aes.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BSC-04-08%5D%20Nonsense&In-Reply-To=%3CCC101E8E-775C-4280-9792-33E814484BF4%40aes.org%3E" TITLE="[SC-04-08] Nonsense">standards at aes.org
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 Tue May 14 09:43:06 MDT 2013
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<PRE>Hi John,

This example is probably trivial, but the general principle is important, I think. The only time that AESSC has been sued was because of a misunderstanding based on unpublished draft information  that was leaked and used carelessly, and I have no intention of seeing this repeated. Keeping reflector traffic separate from other correspondence is a very simple way to maintain due-process hygiene.

BSI uses other tools for handling correspondence and confidentiality, but the overall intent is much the same as you'll find in our, or any other, standards development organization.

regards,

Mark

On 2013-05-14, at 16:15, John Woodgate wrote:

> In message <<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">935D13F4-36CD-4602-A829-938EA27E0BF5 at aes.org</A>>, dated Tue, 14 May 2013, Mark Yonge <<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">standards at aes.org</A>> writes:
> 
>> • Please do not copy working-group correspondence to others. Send messages for the group to the email reflector only.
> 
> That isn't very sensible. All it does is force people to send the same message twice; once to the reflector and once to everyone else that the sender wishes to inform (probably also telling them he has sent the message to AESSC as well). I can't see that there is a real confidentiality issue.
> 
> Even the secret society known as BSI doesn't impose such a condition on its correspondents.
> -- 
> OOO - Own Opinions Only. See www.jmwa.demon.co.uk
> They took me to a specialist burns unit - and made me learn 'To a haggis'.
> 
> John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK
> _______________________________________________
> SC-04-08 mailing list
> <A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">SC-04-08 at standards.aes.org</A>
> <<A HREF="http://standards.aes.org/sc.cfm?ID=91">http://standards.aes.org/sc.cfm?ID=91</A>>

</PRE>

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 <H1>[SC-04-08] Nonsense</H1>
 philip newell 
 <A HREF="mailto:sc-04-08%40standards.aes.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BSC-04-08%5D%20Nonsense&In-Reply-To=%3CCAEEhACmygHwtCrSvj51Vn_5kp0u8P_ScnXJrFShW3Pww0EqU9w%40mail.gmail.com%3E" TITLE="[SC-04-08] Nonsense">philiprnewell at gmail.com
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 Tue May 14 09:45:30 MDT 2013
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<PRE>Dear Mark,

Sorry about the error in protocol, but I am still not
familiar with the system.

My intention of writing (personally) to Tannoy was, as
stated, to ask how they came to their published conclusions, as I thought
that this information could be useful to the group, and help to explain how
the mis-applications are arising. It was discussed in Rome how any future
standard should seek to avoid misinterpretation by outlining clearly how,
when and why it should be applied.

So, the e-mail was not meant to be simply chat,but, as I
said, I am still not accustomed to how this process works. I was aware of
no risk of any breach of confidentiality. Nothing was going outside the
group.

Can you please explain to me, simply, how I can ask a
question to the group without breaking the rules? I was not aware of the
existence of a group reflector. Does it already exist?

Best wishes,

Philip

On 14 May 2013 16:57, Mark Yonge <<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">standards at aes.org</A>> wrote:

> Dear Philip,
>
> I understand the technical issues you mention in your note, but I have to
> clarify a few procedural issues. This isn't aimed particularly at you,
> however in a new AESSC group like SC-04-08, someone was certainly going to
> write a note like this, and it happens that you're the first!
>
> Here goes:
>
> • SC-04-08 is a standards working group with a defined scope working
> on specific projects, each with a defined scope. It does not operate as an
> open-ended chat group. Relevant information, proposed text, and technical
> comment is always welcome; emotive commentary less so.
>
> • Please do not copy working-group correspondence to others. Send
> messages for the group to the email reflector only. If you feel that others
> should be involved in the work of SC-04-08, please invite them to read the
> information at <A HREF="http://www.aes.org/standards/development/membership.cfmand">http://www.aes.org/standards/development/membership.cfmand</A> fill in the on-line form as appropriate.
> Why? As a member of an AES standards working group, you are bound by
> our confidentiality rule; discussions and drafts within the working group
> are held confidentially until such time as a document is formally published
> following our due process. This is principally to avoid public confusion
> with stories that may or may not have demonstrated the consensus necessary
> for a published document. More (much more) at
> <A HREF="http://www.aes.org/standards/development/rules.cfm.">http://www.aes.org/standards/development/rules.cfm.</A>
>
> • You can see a list of the working group members when you log into
> the AESSC members atrium using the login provided (should be the same as
> your regular AES login) and click on the link to the working group. A
> direct login is available at:
> <A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/standards/sc.cfm?ID=91">https://secure.aes.org/standards/sc.cfm?ID=91</A>
>
> • I fully understand why you find the information in that manual
> objectionable. However please bear in mind that when you write to the
> company, you are doing so on your own behalf and not as any kind of
> representative of the AESSC or its working group.
>
> If you have any questions, on this or any other matter concerned with the
> work of the AESSC, please call or Skype - I'm always happy to talk.
>
> best regards,
>
> Mark Yonge
> AES Standards Manager
> and Due-Process Referee
>
> tel: +44 1594 517200
> skype: markyonge
>
> On 2013-05-14, at 14:53, philip newell wrote:
>
> > Dear All,
> >
> > The confusion about the X-curve is now so great that I even
> > found the following in the instruction manual for some Tannoy active
> > monitors. More mis-information, I believe, about the X-curve. There is no
> > way of stopping this nonsense now. The situation is rotten to the core.
> The
> > only solution seems to be the introduction of a totally new, clearly
> > explained and technically justifiable calibration regime.
> > Tannoy ACTIVE STUDIO MONITORS Owners Manual (Page 50 of
> > 56)<
> <A HREF="http://www.google.es/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=15&cad=rja&ved=0CD0QFjAEOAo&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.manualslib.com%2Fmanual%2F168283%2FTannoy-Active-Studio-Monitors.html%3Fpage%3D50&ei=qBs-UZTSIIuKhQeUioGgBg&usg=AFQjCNHTpALw-hamL-JAWNnD0ghVjII5Yw&sig2=bisO_mOG1AM_b2r7a4o8dA&bvm=bv.43287494,d.ZG4">http://www.google.es/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=15&cad=rja&ved=0CD0QFjAEOAo&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.manualslib.com%2Fmanual%2F168283%2FTannoy-Active-Studio-Monitors.html%3Fpage%3D50&ei=qBs-UZTSIIuKhQeUioGgBg&usg=AFQjCNHTpALw-hamL-JAWNnD0ghVjII5Yw&sig2=bisO_mOG1AM_b2r7a4o8dA&bvm=bv.43287494,d.ZG4</A>
> >X
> > – Curves Explained
> > For small rooms, defined as less than 5300 cubic feet or 150 cubic
> meters,
> > ANSI/SMPTE 222M calls for a modification
> > of the X-curve with flat natural response to 2kHz and then a 1.5dB per
> > octave roll off above 2 kHz. *This curve is useful*
> > * *
> > *when mixing in a small room and playing back in a large room.*
> > Another variation on the curve is to begin the high-end roll off at 4 kHz
> > and roll off 3dB per octave instead of 1.5 per
> > octave.
> >
> >
> > This is total rubbish!
> >
> > Does anybody have any further comment before I write to
> Tannoy
> > to ask them where they got this information from?
> >
> >
> > Best
> wishes,
> >
> >
> >
> > Philip
> > _______________________________________________
> > SC-04-08 mailing list
> > <A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">SC-04-08 at standards.aes.org</A>
> > <<A HREF="http://standards.aes.org/sc.cfm?ID=91">http://standards.aes.org/sc.cfm?ID=91</A>>
>
> Mark Yonge
> AES Standards Manager
>
> <A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">standards at aes.org</A>
> tel: +44 1594 517200
> skype: markyonge
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> SC-04-08 mailing list
> <A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">SC-04-08 at standards.aes.org</A>
> <<A HREF="http://standards.aes.org/sc.cfm?ID=91">http://standards.aes.org/sc.cfm?ID=91</A>>
>
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 <H1>[SC-04-08] Nonsense</H1>
 philip newell 
 <A HREF="mailto:sc-04-08%40standards.aes.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BSC-04-08%5D%20Nonsense&In-Reply-To=%3CCAEEhACnnDpJGFXdvaCsNmpaAn20YQtZLLcHiuz7k4bNdg75g4Q%40mail.gmail.com%3E" TITLE="[SC-04-08] Nonsense">philiprnewell at gmail.com
 </A> 
 Tue May 14 09:56:02 MDT 2013
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<PRE>Dear John,

(I hope that I have the correct address, this time  -
these things confuse me! If it is not the right address, please tell me.)

To answer your question, no, I don't think it would,
because the high frequency absorption varies with distance and relative
humidity, and so cannot be compensated for in any fixed manner.

Anyhow, small, modern cinemas would only suffer, at worst,
about 3 dB of roll off* at 10 kHz*, and only, *around the rearmost seats*.
It would also suffer virtually no reverberant build-up at low frequencies,
so there is nothing to compensate for.

At the back of a cinema room we *expect* to hear less top,
just as occurs naturally in a concert hall. What is more, if we
*did*compensate for the roll off at the
*rear* seats, we would be screaming into the ears of the people at the*front
* of the theatre. So, as the sound at the front is *already* *louder* than
at the rear, we would be doing more harm than good.

Rolling off the direct sound above 2 kHz, in any room, has
no reasonable justification to support it.

Best wishes,

Philip

On 14 May 2013 16:23, John Woodgate <<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">jmw at jmwa.demon.co.uk</A>> wrote:

> In message <CAEEhACk=sVUgGJhf=nkqZJAs+**jQ6-_GgUSaWeY6nEV+8QRD6oQ@**
> mail.gmail.com <nkqZJAs%2BjQ6-_GgUSaWeY6nEV%<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">2B8QRD6oQ at mail.gmail.com</A>>>,
> dated Tue, 14 May 2013, philip newell <<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">philiprnewell at gmail.com</A>> writes:
>
> X – Curves Explained
>> For small rooms, defined as less than 5300 cubic feet or 150 cubic
>> meters, ANSI/SMPTE 222M calls for a modification
>> of the X-curve with flat natural response to 2kHz and then a 1.5dB per
>> octave roll off above 2 kHz. This curve is useful
>> when mixing in a small room and playing back in a large room.
>> Another variation on the curve is to begin the high-end roll off at 4 kHz
>> and roll off 3dB per octave instead of 1.5 per
>> octave.
>>
>>
>> This is total rubbish!
>>
>> Does anybody have any further comment before I write to
>> Tannoy to ask them where they got this information from?
>>
>
> You may be right, but is the Tannoy idea actually to compensate for
> high-frequency attenuation with distance in the large room by
> pre-emphasising those frequencies when mixing in the small room? I think a
> case could be made for that, but I wouldn't bet on an acquittal!
> --
> OOO - Own Opinions Only. See www.jmwa.demon.co.uk
> They took me to a specialist burns unit - and made me learn 'To a haggis'.
>
> John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK
>
</PRE>

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 <H1>[SC-04-08] Nonsense</H1>
 John Woodgate 
 <A HREF="mailto:sc-04-08%40standards.aes.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BSC-04-08%5D%20Nonsense&In-Reply-To=%3CWeAYtoEn4lkRFwN3%40jmwa.demon.co.uk%3E" TITLE="[SC-04-08] Nonsense">jmw at jmwa.demon.co.uk
 </A> 
 Tue May 14 09:54:15 MDT 2013
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<PRE>In message <<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">CC101E8E-775C-4280-9792-33E814484BF4 at aes.org</A>>, dated Tue, 14 
May 2013, Mark Yonge <<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">standards at aes.org</A>> writes:

>Keeping reflector traffic separate from other correspondence is a very 
>simple way to maintain due-process hygiene.

But the users find it inconvenient and almost certainly don't see it as 
essential, so won't respect it. In any case, as I illustrated, it's no 
problem at all to bypass any confidentiality, so, to the extent your 
concern is justified, the risk is still there.

The correct course of action is to see how the rule can be improved - 
more confidentiality, less hassle for members.
-- 
OOO - Own Opinions Only. See www.jmwa.demon.co.uk
They took me to a specialist burns unit - and made me learn 'To a haggis'.

John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK
</PRE>

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 <H1>[SC-04-08] About bad frequencies in room calibration (AES-X218,	X219)</H1>
 philip newell 
 <A HREF="mailto:sc-04-08%40standards.aes.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BSC-04-08%5D%20About%20bad%20frequencies%20in%20room%20calibration%20%28AES-X218%2C%0A%09X219%29&In-Reply-To=%3CCAEEhACmhPXusfHEhXGeZ8%3DFSgG_%2BjwZ%2BHqmrcNaai5ynCDgzEg%40mail.gmail.com%3E" TITLE="[SC-04-08] About bad frequencies in room calibration (AES-X218,	X219)">philiprnewell at gmail.com
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 Tue May 14 11:30:18 MDT 2013
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<PRE>Dear Alberto,

No 'room' can, in itself, introduce new frequencies into
the sound unless something is rattling, such as a loose wall-panel, a light
fitting or a metal panel on a mixing console, etc. What is more, if
something is rattling so strongly as to be audible, it should be dealt with
and repaired.

*Reflexions* from screens will not introduce new
frequencies, but we are currently doing some tests to see if the vibration
of a screen, itself, can be a source of non-linearity. As far as I know,
exactly how sound propagates through a perforated screen at different
frequencies is still not fully understood. Perhaps it *could* be a source
of non-linearity. If it was, it would be a function of the sound
transmission* through* the screen and not the reflexions *from* it. (More
work still needs to be done on this topic.)

Non-linearity (the introduction of new frequencies into
the response) is normally not a problem with modern electronic circuitry,
and so amplifiers can usually be ignored as sources of new frequencies.

It is the loudspeaker systems which are the prime
sources of non-linearity, especially when pushed to their limits. The only
way that I can see that a *room* could make the situation worse would be if
there were concentrated reflexions in certain areas of the room in narrow
frequency bands, but in such cases the timing and spectral disturbances
would probably be more problematic than the concentration of non-linear
distortion. In any case, improving the loudspeaker systems and running them
well within their acceptably linear performance range would effectively
remove the source of the objectionable non-linearity.

So, essentially, the behaviour of a room is both linear
and time-invariant.

Best wishes,

Philip

On 14 May 2013 14:58, Alberto Pereira <<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">alberto.pereira at dms-cinema.com</A>>wrote:

> Dear Philip Newell, dear all,
> I remember when we met in Rome, you said no frequencies would appear in
> the chain when we calibrate a room (correct me if I'm wrong, I'll be sorry).
> Is it possible that some inaudible frequencies are amplified and become
> audible because of some acoustics phenomenon of a particular room ?
> Some sound systems can induce unwanted harmonics of the original sound,
> then these harmonics could be amplified in the acoustic chain even if they
> are inaudible in the begining...
>
> I hope I made myself clear.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Alberto PEREIRA
> Ingénieur R&D - R&D Engineer
> Tel. : + 33 (0)1 80 81 52 40
> E-mail : <A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">alberto.pereira at dms-cinema.com</A><mailto:
> <A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">alberto.pereira at dms-cinema.com</A>>
> [cid:<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">part1.03020605.02020801 at dms-cinema.com</A>]
> [cid:<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">image002.png at 01CE50B2.F3D44A60</A>]
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> SC-04-08 mailing list
> <A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">SC-04-08 at standards.aes.org</A>
> <<A HREF="http://standards.aes.org/sc.cfm?ID=91">http://standards.aes.org/sc.cfm?ID=91</A>>
>
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 <H1>[SC-04-08] Nonsense</H1>
 Jacques FUCHS TMS 
 <A HREF="mailto:sc-04-08%40standards.aes.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BSC-04-08%5D%20Nonsense&In-Reply-To=%3CC8BFD0BF-9548-44DF-BE2A-7FD2FBCE5D7C%40taylormadesystem.com%3E" TITLE="[SC-04-08] Nonsense">jacques.fuchs at taylormadesystem.com
 </A> 
 Tue May 14 11:53:42 MDT 2013
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<PRE>Hi John, hi all

this is "just" a confusion between the "X" curve of a B chain in cinemas (ISO 2969 and SMPTE 202) and the "monitor curve" of SPMTE 222 for television control and review rooms....

Their active studio monitors are anyway NOT suitable for cinema purpose...

Cheers

Le 14 mai 2013 à 15:53, philip newell <<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">philiprnewell at gmail.com</A>> a écrit :

> Dear All,
> 
> The confusion about the X-curve is now so great that I even
> found the following in the instruction manual for some Tannoy active
> monitors. More mis-information, I believe, about the X-curve. There is no
> way of stopping this nonsense now. The situation is rotten to the core. The
> only solution seems to be the introduction of a totally new, clearly
> explained and technically justifiable calibration regime.
> Tannoy ACTIVE STUDIO MONITORS Owners Manual (Page 50 of
> 56)<<A HREF="http://www.google.es/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=15&cad=rja&ved=0CD0QFjAEOAo&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.manualslib.com%2Fmanual%2F168283%2FTannoy-Active-Studio-Monitors.html%3Fpage%3D50&ei=qBs-UZTSIIuKhQeUioGgBg&usg=AFQjCNHTpALw-hamL-JAWNnD0ghVjII5Yw&sig2=bisO_mOG1AM_b2r7a4o8dA&bvm=bv.43287494,d.ZG4">http://www.google.es/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=15&cad=rja&ved=0CD0QFjAEOAo&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.manualslib.com%2Fmanual%2F168283%2FTannoy-Active-Studio-Monitors.html%3Fpage%3D50&ei=qBs-UZTSIIuKhQeUioGgBg&usg=AFQjCNHTpALw-hamL-JAWNnD0ghVjII5Yw&sig2=bisO_mOG1AM_b2r7a4o8dA&bvm=bv.43287494,d.ZG4</A>>X
> – Curves Explained
> For small rooms, defined as less than 5300 cubic feet or 150 cubic meters,
> ANSI/SMPTE 222M calls for a modification
> of the X-curve with flat natural response to 2kHz and then a 1.5dB per
> octave roll off above 2 kHz. *This curve is useful*
> * *
> *when mixing in a small room and playing back in a large room.*
> Another variation on the curve is to begin the high-end roll off at 4 kHz
> and roll off 3dB per octave instead of 1.5 per
> octave.
> 
> 
> This is total rubbish!
> 
> Does anybody have any further comment before I write to Tannoy
> to ask them where they got this information from?
> 
> 
> Best wishes,
> 
> 
> 
> Philip
> _______________________________________________
> SC-04-08 mailing list
> <A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">SC-04-08 at standards.aes.org</A>
> <<A HREF="http://standards.aes.org/sc.cfm?ID=91">http://standards.aes.org/sc.cfm?ID=91</A>>

Jacques FUCHS

<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">jacques.fuchs at taylormadesystem.com</A>

Mobile : +33 633 503 604

Systemic acoustics. Sound system design. 
Sound system calibration & optimization.

www.taylormadesystem.com

</PRE>

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