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   <H1>[SC-04-08] Definition of Large vs Small Room - Line of Demarcation</H1>

    <B>Floyd Toole</B> 

    <A HREF="mailto:sc-04-08%40standards.aes.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BSC-04-08%5D%20Definition%20of%20Large%20vs%20Small%20Room%20-%20Line%20of%0A%20Demarcation&In-Reply-To=%3C175515953.1802973.1513721341998%40mail.yahoo.com%3E" TITLE="[SC-04-08] Definition of Large vs Small Room - Line of Demarcation">soundnwine at sbcglobal.net

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<PRE>John,Cumulative energy time was introduced by Glenn Leembruggen in the SMPTE document:SMPTE TC-25CSS (2014). “B-Chain Frequency and TemporalResponse Analysis of Theaters and Dubbing Stages”, Soc. Motion Picture andTelevision Eng. Available for download at:<A HREF="https://www.smpte.org/standards/reportsIt">https://www.smpte.org/standards/reportsIt</A> is discussed in: Toole, F. E. (2015). “The Measurement and Calibrationof Sound Reproducing Systems”, J. Audio Eng. Soc., vol. 63, pp.512-541. This isan open-access paper available to non-members at AES | Audio Engineering Society

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and in the third edition of my book.

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</I>AES | Audio Engineering Society

 The leading professional association worldwide for professionals and students involved in the audio industry. Th...  |   |

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><i>From a perceptual perspective, it makes more sense to me than a decay-time metric created for large, live, venues - a mismatch for small listening spaces. However, I know habits die hard, especially bad ones.Holiday Cheers,Floyd 

</I>

    On Tuesday, December 19, 2017 11:27 AM, John Woodgate <<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">jmw at woodjohn.uk</A>> wrote:

​

  Hi, Floyd. Re: We need some new metrics: Cumulative energy time? I'd agree, if I knew what it meant. It's just a bit too terse for me. I think of summoning my resources from 7 AM onwards so that I  can actually get out of bed at 7.30. CET = 30 min.

  John Woodgate OOO-Own Opinions Only

J M Woodgate and Associates www.woodjohn.uk

Rayleigh, Essex UK On 2017-12-19 19:18, Floyd Toole wrote:

  Complicating matters is the fact that the "small" rooms in which we listen for recreation and in which recordings are mixed do not have consequential "diffuse" reverberant sound fields. There is simply too much absorption. The sound arriving at a listener from a normally directional forward-firing loudspeaker is dominantly direct sound at high frequencies, and a combination of direct and a few early reflections through the mid frequencies. This is true also in typical cinemas where the direct sound is dominant above about 600-800 Hz. This is explained, with examples, in the third edition of my book "Sound Reproduction"(Focal Press 2017) and in the cited references. 

  If RT is measured using an omni sound source, the result is an irrelevant number in typical small-room listening situations. If RT is measured using a typically directional loudspeaker, it is not RT in the classic sense- the sound field is not diffuse. The calculated Schroeder frequency is incorrect for typical small rooms - it is too high - because Schroeder described the frequency as being applicable in large auditoriums. I call it a "transition" frequency, for lack of a better term. 

  We need some new metrics: Cumulative energy time? 

      On Tuesday, December 19, 2017 8:49 AM, Thomas Lagö via SC-04-08 <<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">sc-04-08 at standards.aes.org</A>> wrote:

  Dear All,

 If it is a “Sabine Room” (diffuse sound field) it is true. If not, it depends how “linear" the RT curve is. A curved curve will change the value.

 Best regards,

 Thomas

 > On 19 Dec 2017, at 17:35, Peter Mapp via SC-04-08 <<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">sc-04-08 at standards.aes.org</A>> wrote:

 > 

 > T30 is effectively the same as T60 - just potentially easier to measure. So same equations. In practice, T20 can be a little different depending on the source directivity & diffuseness of the space but should give similar results. I have measured true T60 in some large and v quiet spaces (Cathedrals).

 > 

 > pm

 > 

 > -----Original Message-----

 > From: SC-04-08 [mailto:<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">sc-04-08-bounces at standards.aes.org</A>] On Behalf Of John Woodgate via SC-04-08

 > Sent: 19 December 2017 10:08

 > To: Peter Mapp; Working group on Measurement and equalization of sound systems in rooms; F.C.Schafer-Consulting

 > Subject: Re: [SC-04-08] Definition of Large vs Small Room - Line of Demarcation

 > 

 > I agree with the extract quoted below. Whether a room is 'large' or 'small' depends on what frequency is being considered.  One way to go is to define 'reverberant conditions' , where there is no sound below the Schroeder frequency and ' room mode conditions' where there is sound below the Schroeder frequency. These definitions may not be quite formal enough, bit if accepted in principle they can be 'polished'.

 > 

 > I am not quite sure that an actual frequency can be defined, unless it's the Schroeder frequency itself. But that isn't rouble-free, because it uses T60, which Peter tells me is a convenient fiction because no room behaves theoretically down to -60 dB. Can the equation be modified to use T20 or T30, which I understand to be rather better established?

 > 

 > John Woodgate OOO-Own Opinions Only

 > J M Woodgate and Associates www.woodjohn.uk Rayleigh, Essex UK

 > 

 > On 2017-12-19 09:38, Peter Mapp via SC-04-08 wrote:

 >> I would like to suggest that rather than try to definitively characterize a large vs small room we utilize these two references, to define the lowest frequency that is considered statistically valid for a particular test situation.

 > 

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   <H1>[SC-04-08] Definition of Large vs Small Room - Line of Demarcation</H1>

    <B>John Woodgate</B> 

    <A HREF="mailto:sc-04-08%40standards.aes.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BSC-04-08%5D%20Definition%20of%20Large%20vs%20Small%20Room%20-%20Line%20of%0A%20Demarcation&In-Reply-To=%3C06da51a2-2655-4ee3-8ee0-43b138190ca4%40woodjohn.uk%3E" TITLE="[SC-04-08] Definition of Large vs Small Room - Line of Demarcation">jmw at woodjohn.uk

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    <I>Tue Dec 19 17:38:22 EST 2017</I>

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<PRE>Thank you. I will look at those papers.  Your solsticial greetings are 

cordially reciprocated.

​

John Woodgate OOO-Own Opinions Only

J M Woodgate and Associates www.woodjohn.uk

Rayleigh, Essex UK

​

On 2017-12-19 22:09, Floyd Toole wrote:

><i> John,

</I>><i> Cumulative energy time was introduced by Glenn Leembruggen in the 

</I>><i> SMPTE document:

</I>><i> SMPTE TC-25CSS (*2014*). “B-Chain Frequency and Temporal Response 

</I>><i> Analysis of Theaters and Dubbing Stages”, Soc. Motion Picture and 

</I>><i> Television Eng. Available for download at: 

</I>><i> <A HREF="https://www.smpte.org/standards/reports">https://www.smpte.org/standards/reports</A>

</I>><i> It is discussed in:

</I>><i> Toole, F. E. (*2015*). “The Measurement and Calibration of Sound 

</I>><i> Reproducing Systems”, J. Audio Eng. Soc., vol. 63, pp.512-541. This is 

</I>><i> an open-access paper available to non-members at AES | Audio 

</I>><i> Engineering Society <<A HREF="http://www.aes.org/">http://www.aes.org/</A>>

</I>><i> and in the third edition of my book.

</I>><i>

</I>><i>

</I>><i>    

</I>><i>

</I>><i>

</I>><i>    

</I>><i>

</I>><i>

</I>><i>     AES | Audio Engineering Society

</I>><i>

</I>><i> The leading professional association worldwide for professionals and 

</I>><i> students involved in the audio industry. Th...

</I>><i>    

</I>><i>

</I>><i> <<A HREF="http://www.aes.org/">http://www.aes.org/</A>>

</I>><i>

</I>><i>

</I>><i> From a perceptual perspective, it makes more sense to me than a 

</I>><i> decay-time metric created for large, live, venues - a mismatch for 

</I>><i> small listening spaces. However, I know habits die hard, especially 

</I>><i> bad ones.

</I>><i> Holiday Cheers,

</I>><i> Floyd

</I>><i>

</I>><i>

</I>><i> On Tuesday, December 19, 2017 11:27 AM, John Woodgate 

</I>><i> <<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">jmw at woodjohn.uk</A>> wrote:

</I>><i>

</I>><i>

</I>><i> Hi, Floyd. Re: We need some new metrics: Cumulative energy time?

</I>><i> I'd agree, if I knew what it meant. It's just a bit too terse for me. 

</I>><i> I think of summoning my resources from 7 AM onwards so that I  can 

</I>><i> actually get out of bed at 7.30. CET = 30 min.

</I>><i> John Woodgate OOO-Own Opinions Only

</I>><i> J M Woodgate and Associateswww.woodjohn.uk <<A HREF="http://www.woodjohn.uk/">http://www.woodjohn.uk/</A>>

</I>><i> Rayleigh, Essex UK

</I>><i> On 2017-12-19 19:18, Floyd Toole wrote:

</I>>><i> Complicating matters is the fact that the "small" rooms in which we 

</I>>><i> listen for recreation and in which recordings are mixed do not have 

</I>>><i> consequential "diffuse" reverberant sound fields. There is simply too 

</I>>><i> much absorption. The sound arriving at a listener from a normally 

</I>>><i> directional forward-firing loudspeaker is dominantly direct sound at 

</I>>><i> high frequencies, and a combination of direct and a few early 

</I>>><i> reflections through the mid frequencies. This is true also in typical 

</I>>><i> cinemas where the direct sound is dominant above about 600-800 Hz. 

</I>>><i> This is explained, with examples, in the third edition of my book 

</I>>><i> "Sound Reproduction"(Focal Press 2017) and in the cited references.

</I>>><i>

</I>>><i> If RT is measured using an omni sound source, the result is an 

</I>>><i> irrelevant number in typical small-room listening situations. If RT 

</I>>><i> is measured using a typically directional loudspeaker, it is not RT 

</I>>><i> in the classic sense- the sound field is not diffuse. The calculated 

</I>>><i> Schroeder frequency is incorrect for typical small rooms - it is too 

</I>>><i> high - because Schroeder described the frequency as being applicable 

</I>>><i> in large auditoriums. I call it a "transition" frequency, for lack of 

</I>>><i> a better term.

</I>>><i>

</I>>><i> We need some new metrics: Cumulative energy time?

</I>>><i>

</I>>><i>

</I>>><i> On Tuesday, December 19, 2017 8:49 AM, Thomas Lagö via SC-04-08 

</I>>><i> <<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">sc-04-08 at standards.aes.org</A>> <mailto:<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">sc-04-08 at standards.aes.org</A>> wrote:

</I>>><i>

</I>>><i>

</I>>><i> Dear All,

</I>>><i>

</I>>><i> If it is a “Sabine Room” (diffuse sound field) it is true. If not, it 

</I>>><i> depends how “linear" the RT curve is. A curved curve will change the 

</I>>><i> value.

</I>>><i>

</I>>><i> Best regards,

</I>>><i> Thomas

</I>>><i>

</I>>><i>

</I>>><i> > On 19 Dec 2017, at 17:35, Peter Mapp via SC-04-08 

</I>>><i> <<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">sc-04-08 at standards.aes.org</A> <mailto:<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">sc-04-08 at standards.aes.org</A>>> wrote:

</I>>><i> >

</I>>><i> > T30 is effectively the same as T60 - just potentially easier to 

</I>>><i> measure. So same equations. In practice, T20 can be a little 

</I>>><i> different depending on the source directivity & diffuseness of the 

</I>>><i> space but should give similar results. I have measured true T60 in 

</I>>><i> some large and v quiet spaces (Cathedrals).

</I>>><i> >

</I>>><i> > pm

</I>>><i> >

</I>>><i> > -----Original Message-----

</I>>><i> > From: SC-04-08 [mailto:<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">sc-04-08-bounces at standards.aes.org</A> 

</I>>><i> <mailto:<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">sc-04-08-bounces at standards.aes.org</A>>] On Behalf Of John 

</I>>><i> Woodgate via SC-04-08

</I>>><i> > Sent: 19 December 2017 10:08

</I>>><i> > To: Peter Mapp; Working group on Measurement and equalization of 

</I>>><i> sound systems in rooms; F.C.Schafer-Consulting

</I>>><i> > Subject: Re: [SC-04-08] Definition of Large vs Small Room - Line of 

</I>>><i> Demarcation

</I>>><i> >

</I>>><i> > I agree with the extract quoted below. Whether a room is 'large' or 

</I>>><i> 'small' depends on what frequency is being considered.  One way to go 

</I>>><i> is to define 'reverberant conditions' , where there is no sound below 

</I>>><i> the Schroeder frequency and ' room mode conditions' where there is 

</I>>><i> sound below the Schroeder frequency. These definitions may not be 

</I>>><i> quite formal enough, bit if accepted in principle they can be 'polished'.

</I>>><i> >

</I>>><i> > I am not quite sure that an actual frequency can be defined, unless 

</I>>><i> it's the Schroeder frequency itself. But that isn't rouble-free, 

</I>>><i> because it uses T60, which Peter tells me is a convenient fiction 

</I>>><i> because no room behaves theoretically down to -60 dB. Can the 

</I>>><i> equation be modified to use T20 or T30, which I understand to be 

</I>>><i> rather better established?

</I>>><i> >

</I>>><i> > John Woodgate OOO-Own Opinions Only

</I>>><i> > J M Woodgate and Associates www.woodjohn.uk 

</I>>><i> <<A HREF="http://www.woodjohn.uk/">http://www.woodjohn.uk/</A>> Rayleigh, Essex UK

</I>>><i> >

</I>>><i> > On 2017-12-19 09:38, Peter Mapp via SC-04-08 wrote:

</I>>><i> >> I would like to suggest that rather than try to definitively 

</I>>><i> characterize a large vs small room we utilize these two references, 

</I>>><i> to define the lowest frequency that is considered statistically valid 

</I>>><i> for a particular test situation.

</I>>><i> >

</I>>><i> > _____________________________________...

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</I>

​

<LI><A HREF="000425.html">[SC-04-08] Minutes  & Actions of New York Meeting

</A><A NAME="425"> </A>

<I>Peter Mapp

</I>

​

<LI><A HREF="000430.html">[SC-04-08] Document uploads & Background noise

</A><A NAME="430"> </A>

<I>Peter Mapp

</I>

​

<LI><A HREF="000431.html">[SC-04-08] Minutes  & Actions of New York Meeting

</A><A NAME="431"> </A>

<I>Peter Mapp

</I>

​

<LI><A HREF="000434.html">[SC-04-08] Definition of Large vs Small Room - Line of Demarcation

</A><A NAME="434"> </A>

<I>Peter Mapp

</I>

​

<LI><A HREF="000440.html">[SC-04-08] Minutes  & Actions of New York Meeting

</A><A NAME="440"> </A>

<I>Peter Mapp

</I>

​

<LI><A HREF="000441.html">[SC-04-08] Definition of Large vs Small Room - Line of Demarcation

</A><A NAME="441"> </A>

<I>Peter Mapp

</I>

​

<LI><A HREF="000346.html">[SC-04-08] X215 liaison request from SMPTE

</A><A NAME="346"> </A>

<I>Brian McCarty

</I>

​

<LI><A HREF="000379.html">[SC-04-08] Comments and Summary

</A><A NAME="379"> </A>

<I>Brian McCarty

</I>

​

<LI><A HREF="000383.html">[SC-04-08] Comments and Summary Further Comments on issues raised by Julius Newell by David Murphy

</A><A NAME="383"> </A>

<I>Brian McCarty

</I>

​

<LI><A HREF="000404.html">[SC-04-08] Comments uploaded by David Murphy

</A><A NAME="404"> </A>

<I>Brian McCarty

</I>

​

<LI><A HREF="000422.html">[SC-04-08] GoToMeeting Invitation - AES142 Berlin Meeting

</A><A NAME="422"> </A>

<I>Brian McCarty

</I>

​

<LI><A HREF="000408.html">[SC-04-08] Moving mic again

</A><A NAME="408"> </A>

<I>John Murray

</I>

​

<LI><A HREF="000409.html">[SC-04-08] InfoComm Spectral Balance Standard

</A><A NAME="409"> </A>

<I>John Murray

</I>

​

<LI><A HREF="000377.html">[SC-04-08] Comments uploaded by David Murphy

</A><A NAME="377"> </A>

<I>Joules Newell

</I>

​

<LI><A HREF="000406.html">[SC-04-08] Moving mic again

</A><A NAME="406"> </A>

<I>Joules Newell

</I>

​

<LI><A HREF="000397.html">[SC-04-08] Comments uploaded by David Murphy

</A><A NAME="397"> </A>

<I>Gunter Oehme

</I>

​

<LI><A HREF="000402.html">[SC-04-08] Comments uploaded by David Murphy

</A><A NAME="402"> </A>

<I>Gunter Oehme

</I>

​

<LI><A HREF="000392.html">[SC-04-08] Moving mic again

</A><A NAME="392"> </A>

<I>Jean-Luc Ohl

</I>

​

<LI><A HREF="000395.html">[SC-04-08] Moving mic again

</A><A NAME="395"> </A>

<I>Ram at rns.co.in

</I>

​

<LI><A HREF="000418.html">[SC-04-08] InfoComm Spectral Balance Standard

</A><A NAME="418"> </A>

<I>Ram at rns.co.in

</I>

​

<LI><A HREF="000374.html">[SC-04-08] Comments uploaded by David Murphy

</A><A NAME="374"> </A>

<I>Robinson, Charles Q

</I>

​

<LI><A HREF="000421.html">[SC-04-08] GoToMeeting Invitation - AES142 Berlin Meeting

</A><A NAME="421"> </A>

<I>AES Standards

</I>

​

<LI><A HREF="000350.html">[SC-04-08] Floyd Toole comments on SMPTE RP 2096-1:201x

</A><A NAME="350"> </A>

<I>Floyd Toole

</I>

​

<LI><A HREF="000354.html">[SC-04-08] Floyd Toole comments on SMPTE RP 2096-1:201x

</A><A NAME="354"> </A>

<I>Floyd Toole

</I>

​

<LI><A HREF="000444.html">[SC-04-08] Definition of Large vs Small Room - Line of Demarcation

</A><A NAME="444"> </A>

<I>Floyd Toole

</I>

​

<LI><A HREF="000446.html">[SC-04-08] Definition of Large vs Small Room - Line of Demarcation

</A><A NAME="446"> </A>

<I>Floyd Toole

</I>

​

<LI><A HREF="000438.html">[SC-04-08] Minutes  & Actions of New York Meeting

</A><A NAME="438"> </A>

<I>Vessa, Brian

</I>

​

<LI><A HREF="000347.html">[SC-04-08] X215 liaison request from SMPTE

</A><A NAME="347"> </A>

<I>John Woodgate

</I>

​

<LI><A HREF="000351.html">[SC-04-08] Floyd Toole comments on SMPTE RP 2096-1:201x

</A><A NAME="351"> </A>

<I>John Woodgate

</I>

​

<LI><A HREF="000355.html">[SC-04-08] Floyd Toole comments on SMPTE RP 2096-1:201x

</A><A NAME="355"> </A>

<I>John Woodgate

</I>

​

<LI><A HREF="000364.html">[SC-04-08] Floyd Toole comments on SMPTE RP 2096-1:201x

</A><A NAME="364"> </A>

<I>John Woodgate

</I>

​

<LI><A HREF="000368.html">[SC-04-08] Comments uploaded by David Murphy

</A><A NAME="368"> </A>

<I>John Woodgate

</I>

​

<LI><A HREF="000370.html">[SC-04-08] Comments uploaded by David Murphy

</A><A NAME="370"> </A>

<I>John Woodgate

</I>

​

<LI><A HREF="000372.html">[SC-04-08] Comments uploaded by David Murphy

</A><A NAME="372"> </A>

<I>John Woodgate

</I>

​

<LI><A HREF="000378.html">[SC-04-08] Comments uploaded by David Murphy

</A><A NAME="378"> </A>

<I>John Woodgate

</I>

​

<LI><A HREF="000381.html">[SC-04-08] Comments and Summary Further Comments on issues    raised by Julius Newell by David Murphy

</A><A NAME="381"> </A>

<I>John Woodgate

</I>

​

<LI><A HREF="000390.html">[SC-04-08] Comments uploaded by David Murphy

</A><A NAME="390"> </A>

<I>John Woodgate

</I>

​

<LI><A HREF="000393.html">[SC-04-08] Comments uploaded by Da...

​

     <title>The SC-04-08 2017 Archive by date</title>

      <a name="start"></A>

      <h1>2017 Archives by date</h1>

      <ul>

         <li> <b>Messages sorted by:</b>

            <a href="thread.html#start">[ thread ]</a>

        <a href="subject.html#start">[ subject ]</a>

        <a href="author.html#start">[ author ]</a>

​

         <li><b><a href="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">More info on this list...

                    </a></b></li>

      </ul>

      <p><b>Starting:</b> <i>Thu Jan  5 14:12:48 EST 2017</i><br>

         <b>Ending:</b> <i>Tue Dec 19 17:38:22 EST 2017</i><br>

         <b>Messages:</b> 100<p>

     <ul>

​

<LI><A HREF="000346.html">[SC-04-08] X215 liaison request from SMPTE

</A><A NAME="346"> </A>

<I>Brian McCarty

</I>

​

<LI><A HREF="000347.html">[SC-04-08] X215 liaison request from SMPTE

</A><A NAME="347"> </A>

<I>John Woodgate

</I>

​

<LI><A HREF="000348.html">[SC-04-08] X215 liaison request from SMPTE

</A><A NAME="348"> </A>

<I>David Josephson

</I>

​

<LI><A HREF="000349.html">[SC-04-08] X215 liaison request from SMPTE

</A><A NAME="349"> </A>

<I>philip newell

</I>

​

<LI><A HREF="000350.html">[SC-04-08] Floyd Toole comments on SMPTE RP 2096-1:201x

</A><A NAME="350"> </A>

<I>Floyd Toole

</I>

​

<LI><A HREF="000351.html">[SC-04-08] Floyd Toole comments on SMPTE RP 2096-1:201x

</A><A NAME="351"> </A>

<I>John Woodgate

</I>

​

<LI><A HREF="000352.html">[SC-04-08] Floyd Toole comments on SMPTE RP 2096-1:201x

</A><A NAME="352"> </A>

<I>David Josephson

</I>

​

<LI><A HREF="000354.html">[SC-04-08] Floyd Toole comments on SMPTE RP 2096-1:201x

</A><A NAME="354"> </A>

<I>Floyd Toole

</I>

​

<LI><A HREF="000355.html">[SC-04-08] Floyd Toole comments on SMPTE RP 2096-1:201x

</A><A NAME="355"> </A>

<I>John Woodgate

</I>

​

<LI><A HREF="000356.html">[SC-04-08] Floyd Toole comments on SMPTE RP 2096-1:201x

</A><A NAME="356"> </A>

<I>David Josephson

</I>

​

<LI><A HREF="000357.html">[SC-04-08] Floyd Toole comments on SMPTE RP 2096-1:201x

</A><A NAME="357"> </A>

<I>Richard Cabot

</I>

​

<LI><A HREF="000358.html">[SC-04-08] Floyd Toole comments on SMPTE RP 2096-1:201x

</A><A NAME="358"> </A>

<I>David Josephson

</I>

​

<LI><A HREF="000359.html">[SC-04-08] Floyd Toole comments on SMPTE RP 2096-1:201x

</A><A NAME="359"> </A>

<I>philip newell

</I>

​

<LI><A HREF="000360.html">[SC-04-08] Floyd Toole comments on SMPTE RP 2096-1:201x

</A><A NAME="360"> </A>

<I>Glenn Leembruggen

</I>

​

<LI><A HREF="000361.html">[SC-04-08] Floyd Toole comments on SMPTE RP 2096-1:201x

</A><A NAME="361"> </A>

<I>david murphy

</I>

​

<LI><A HREF="000362.html">[SC-04-08] Floyd Toole comments on SMPTE RP 2096-1:201x

</A><A NAME="362"> </A>

<I>philip newell

</I>