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<TITLE> [SC-04-08] InfoComm Spectral Balance Standard </TITLE> pre { white-space: pre-wrap; /* css-2.1, curent FF, Opera, Safari */ } <H1>[SC-04-08] InfoComm Spectral Balance Standard</H1> John Woodgate <A HREF="mailto:sc-04-08%40standards.aes.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BSC-04-08%5D%20InfoComm%20Spectral%20Balance%20Standard&In-Reply-To=%3C00d301d2bf4b%24674b0d70%2435e12850%24%40btinternet.com%3E" TITLE="[SC-04-08] InfoComm Spectral Balance Standard">jmw1937 at btinternet.com </A> Thu Apr 27 07:42:52 EDT 2017 <UL> <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="000413.html">[SC-04-08] InfoComm Spectral Balance Standard </A></li> <LI>Next message: <A HREF="000415.html">[SC-04-08] InfoComm Spectral Balance Standard </A></li> <LI> Messages sorted by: <a href="date.html#414">[ date ]</a> <a href="thread.html#414">[ thread ]</a> <a href="subject.html#414">[ subject ]</a> <a href="author.html#414">[ author ]</a> </LI> </UL> <HR>  <PRE>I can't wait to see it. I love a good laugh. (;-) With best wishes DESIGN IT IN! OOO - Own Opinions Only www.jmwa.demon.co.uk J M Woodgate and Associates Rayleigh England Sylvae in aeternum manent. -----Original Message----- From: SC-04-08 [mailto:<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">sc-04-08-bounces at standards.aes.org</A>] On Behalf Of Peter Mapp via SC-04-08 Sent: Thursday, 27 April 2017 12:35 To: Charlie Hughes <<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">charlie at excelsior-audio.com</A>>; Working group on Measurement and equalization of sound systems in rooms <<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">sc-04-08 at standards.aes.org</A>>; david murphy <<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">dmurphy at krix.com.au</A>>; Richard Cabot <<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">standards at aes.org</A>>; John Murray <<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">john at OptimumSS.com</A>> Subject: Re: [SC-04-08] InfoComm Spectral Balance Standard Charlie I think you need to clarify your statement "possibly making changes" . The document is riddled with inconsistencies and inaccuracies. If there is only a 'possibility' of changes being made, then it is total waste of time for this group to review it. It is one of the worst draft standard documents that I have read in a while. I am not sure whether the AES will be making a formal submission as per the SMPTE document or if it will be down to individuals to comment. Regards Peter VC SC04-08 -----Original Message----- From: SC-04-08 [mailto:<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">sc-04-08-bounces at standards.aes.org</A>] On Behalf Of Charlie Hughes via SC-04-08 Sent: 27 April 2017 12:07 To: david murphy; Working group on Measurement and equalization of sound systems in rooms; Richard Cabot; John Murray Subject: Re: [SC-04-08] InfoComm Spectral Balance Standard Hi Everyone, Please keep in mind that this is a preliminary draft of a new standard from InfoComm. We will be reviewing the comments we receive and possibly making changes based on the feedback received. Best regards, Charlie Hughes Excelsior Audio Gastonia, NC +1 704.675.5435 (tel) +1 704.678.6570 (mobile) www.excelsior-audio.com<<A HREF="http://www.excelsior-audio.com">http://www.excelsior-audio.com</A>> -----Original Message----- And I for one would really like to read the InfoComm Standard. _______________________________________________ SC-04-08 mailing list <A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">SC-04-08 at standards.aes.org</A><mailto:<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">SC-04-08 at standards.aes.org</A>> <<A HREF="http://standards.aes.org/sc.cfm?ID=91">http://standards.aes.org/sc.cfm?ID=91</A>> _______________________________________________ SC-04-08 mailing list <A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">SC-04-08 at standards.aes.org</A> <<A HREF="http://standards.aes.org/sc.cfm?ID=91">http://standards.aes.org/sc.cfm?ID=91</A>> </PRE>  <HR> <UL>  <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="000413.html">[SC-04-08] InfoComm Spectral Balance Standard </A></li> <LI>Next message: <A HREF="000415.html">[SC-04-08] InfoComm Spectral Balance Standard </A></li> <LI> Messages sorted by: <a href="date.html#414">[ date ]</a> <a href="thread.html#414">[ thread ]</a> <a href="subject.html#414">[ subject ]</a> <a href="author.html#414">[ author ]</a> </LI> </UL> <hr> <a href="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">More information about the SC-04-08 mailing list</a> 

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<TITLE> [SC-04-08] InfoComm Spectral Balance Standard </TITLE> pre { white-space: pre-wrap; /* css-2.1, curent FF, Opera, Safari */ } <H1>[SC-04-08] InfoComm Spectral Balance Standard</H1> Charlie Hughes <A HREF="mailto:sc-04-08%40standards.aes.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BSC-04-08%5D%20InfoComm%20Spectral%20Balance%20Standard&In-Reply-To=%3C5B9CF13FCBF0BD408B0F0A1F63FA94750109A8EBCD%40EXDAG10-N2%3E" TITLE="[SC-04-08] InfoComm Spectral Balance Standard">charlie at excelsior-audio.com </A> Thu Apr 27 07:52:26 EDT 2017 <UL> <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="000414.html">[SC-04-08] InfoComm Spectral Balance Standard </A></li> <LI>Next message: <A HREF="000416.html">[SC-04-08] InfoComm Spectral Balance Standard </A></li> <LI> Messages sorted by: <a href="date.html#415">[ date ]</a> <a href="thread.html#415">[ thread ]</a> <a href="subject.html#415">[ subject ]</a> <a href="author.html#415">[ author ]</a> </LI> </UL> <HR>  <PRE>Hi Peter, My understanding is that all comments will be reviewed and efforts taken to address them appropriately. Please do take time to review the document and offer constructive criticism so that improvements can be made. Best regards, Charlie Hughes Excelsior Audio Gastonia, NC +1 704.675.5435 (tel) +1 704.678.6570 (mobile) www.excelsior-audio.com From: Peter Mapp [mailto:<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">peter at petermapp.com</A>] Sent: Thursday, April 27, 2017 7:35 AM To: Charlie Hughes; Working group on Measurement and equalization of sound systems in rooms; david murphy; Richard Cabot; John Murray Subject: RE: [SC-04-08] InfoComm Spectral Balance Standard Charlie I think you need to clarify your statement "possibly making changes" . The document is riddled with inconsistencies and inaccuracies. If there is only a 'possibility' of changes being made, then it is total waste of time for this group to review it. It is one of the worst draft standard documents that I have read in a while. I am not sure whether the AES will be making a formal submission as per the SMPTE document or if it will be down to individuals to comment. Regards Peter VC SC04-08 -----Original Message----- From: SC-04-08 [mailto:<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">sc-04-08-bounces at standards.aes.org</A>] On Behalf Of Charlie Hughes via SC-04-08 Sent: 27 April 2017 12:07 To: david murphy; Working group on Measurement and equalization of sound systems in rooms; Richard Cabot; John Murray Subject: Re: [SC-04-08] InfoComm Spectral Balance Standard Hi Everyone, Please keep in mind that this is a preliminary draft of a new standard from InfoComm. We will be reviewing the comments we receive and possibly making changes based on the feedback received. Best regards, Charlie Hughes Excelsior Audio Gastonia, NC +1 704.675.5435 (tel) +1 704.678.6570 (mobile) www.excelsior-audio.com<<A HREF="http://www.excelsior-audio.com">http://www.excelsior-audio.com</A>> -----Original Message----- And I for one would really like to read the InfoComm Standard. _______________________________________________ SC-04-08 mailing list <A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">SC-04-08 at standards.aes.org</A><mailto:<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">SC-04-08 at standards.aes.org</A>> <<A HREF="http://standards.aes.org/sc.cfm?ID=91">http://standards.aes.org/sc.cfm?ID=91</A>> </PRE>  <HR> <UL>  <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="000414.html">[SC-04-08] InfoComm Spectral Balance Standard </A></li> <LI>Next message: <A HREF="000416.html">[SC-04-08] InfoComm Spectral Balance Standard </A></li> <LI> Messages sorted by: <a href="date.html#415">[ date ]</a> <a href="thread.html#415">[ thread ]</a> <a href="subject.html#415">[ subject ]</a> <a href="author.html#415">[ author ]</a> </LI> </UL> <hr> <a href="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">More information about the SC-04-08 mailing list</a> 

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<TITLE> [SC-04-08] Moving mic again </TITLE> pre { white-space: pre-wrap; /* css-2.1, curent FF, Opera, Safari */ } <H1>[SC-04-08] Moving mic again</H1> Joules Newell <A HREF="mailto:sc-04-08%40standards.aes.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BSC-04-08%5D%20Moving%20mic%20again&In-Reply-To=%3C4DD74B17-C7D7-44CB-AEBE-F29224948FE9%40newellacousticengineering.com%3E" TITLE="[SC-04-08] Moving mic again">Joules at newellacousticengineering.com </A> Fri Jan 20 11:33:36 EST 2017 <UL> <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="000401.html">[SC-04-08] Moving mic again </A></li> <LI>Next message: <A HREF="000408.html">[SC-04-08] Moving mic again </A></li> <LI> Messages sorted by: <a href="date.html#406">[ date ]</a> <a href="thread.html#406">[ thread ]</a> <a href="subject.html#406">[ subject ]</a> <a href="author.html#406">[ author ]</a> </LI> </UL> <HR>  <PRE>Hi all. Taking a measurement in a room is a small and easy part of the whole process. There are the following issues of greater concern. In most circumstances every point in a room has a different amplitude, frequency and time arrival response. Which do we choose and which is "correct"? Most loudspeakers, and especially cinema loudspeakers have widely varying polar responses. Which axial point do we choose and which one is correct? It has been well proven that adjusting amplitude frequency response to improve matters at one point in a room can severely degrade response at other positions. Which would we choose to adjust for if we only have one equaliser to fix things with? Which listener is more important than the others? Use of multi mic averaging does not often create a measurement that relates to any individual point but instead creates a further non-related hypothetical mathematical point. Why is this result any more correct than any individual point in space? Listeners do not have 30 foot ears, we only pick up from two small points, spatial average response does not relate to any listener. Humans have an exceptional ability to compensate for environmental anomalies if the direct sound is as good as it can be, measurement equipment does not possess this property. Why believe a wiggly line? Food for thought. Cheers. Joules. Sent from my iPad > On 20 Jan 2017, at 14:46, Thomas Lagö via SC-04-08 <<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">sc-04-08 at standards.aes.org</A>> wrote: > > Guys, I will send a document this weekend where I will discuss how to make good quality FRF measurements in rooms :-) I have started on it but I am not done yet. Bare with me! > > Best regards, > Thomas Lagö > >> On 20 Jan 2017, at 15:42, John Woodgate via SC-04-08 <<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">sc-04-08 at standards.aes.org</A>> wrote: >> >> My proposal was not very serious, but in any case modern processing would allow >> the sound to be perceived as 'distant' when necessary. >> >> With best wishes DESIGN IT IN! OOO - Own Opinions Only >> www.jmwa.demon.co.uk J M Woodgate and Associates Rayleigh England >> >> Sylvae in aeternum manent. >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: SC-04-08 [mailto:<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">sc-04-08-bounces at standards.aes.org</A>] On Behalf Of philip >> newell via SC-04-08 >> Sent: Friday, January 20, 2017 2:32 PM >> To: Working group on Measurement and equalization of sound systems in rooms >> <<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">sc-04-08 at standards.aes.org</A>> >> Subject: Re: [SC-04-08] Moving mic again >> >> Dear John, >> >> I agree with what you say, except for the last point. The >> sound and image need to be colocated or the perception of cinema is >> un-natural. Distant image with close sound does not work! >> >> In Floyd's comments, last week, to the statement '*The >> technician must knowledgeably interpret what is visually displayed, and >> understand the meaning of the displayed response rather than simply >> performing adjustments to a target response line or window*', he replied* >> 'These are very special technicians possessing insights that go beyond the >> information available in a room curve'.* So yes, the 'insights' are >> somewhat artistic, and technicians with the necessary experience to have >> them will be somewhat rare in the rushed world of cinema calibration. >> (Often, the managements allocate less than an hour to do a whole cinema!) >> Consequently, reliable insights usually only come with specialist >> consultants, which few cinemas wish to pay for. >> >> In reply to Jean-Luc, the manual waving of a microphone would >> be limited to too small an area for large-cinema calibration, and, as Ram >> has said, directivity problems would only be seen by measuring over a >> greater area (although they are not equalisable, to any significantly >> useful degree). >> >> I have been of the (well-published) opinion for a long time >> that the key to consistent sound in the rooms lies in consistent sounds >> leaving the loudspeakers, but the cinema-calibration industry is still not >> set-up to do this. Therefore, the document under discussion, here, is an >> attempt to indicate how to achieve the best consistency possible, from >> theatre to theatre, using multiple microphone set back into the room >> because that is how the existing international Standards require that they >> should be calibrated. It may take some years to change the Standards, so a >> short-term measure is to seek a more modern interpretation. >> >> >> Best wishes, >> >> >> Philip >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On 20 January 2017 at 14:52, John Woodgate via SC-04-08 < >> <A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">sc-04-08 at standards.aes.org</A>> wrote: >> >>> This is crucial: >>> >>> All the problems start with the room interaction. Here averaging and >>> equalizing >>> and >>> balancing with Mid-High section has been an exercise in trial and error in >>> most cases. Experience counts. >>> >>> >>> This means that the process is an 'art', not a 'science'. There is no >>> analytic >>> solution because the sound at a point well away from the sources has a >>> mixture >>> of 'equalizable' and 'non-equalizable' defects. These can be distinguished >>> in a >>> time-domain display, but EQ, i.e. changing the frequency response of the >>> source, >>> cannot 'cure' the latter. If you include changing arrival times in the EQ >>> process, that can work for a certain region, but may well make things >>> worse >>> elsewhere. >>> >>> Simple solution - eliminate the room. Put a loudspeaker in every seat >>> back, so >>> everyone gets direct sound. Patent applied for (in about 1898 I believe). >>> Used >>> in the British Parliament building. >>> >>> >>> With best wishes DESIGN IT IN! OOO - Own Opinions Only >>> www.jmwa.demon.co.uk J M Woodgate and Associates Rayleigh England >>> >>> Sylvae in aeternum manent. >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: SC-04-08 [mailto:<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">sc-04-08-bounces at standards.aes.org</A>] On Behalf Of >>> Ram--- >>> via SC-04-08 >>> Sent: Friday, January 20, 2017 1:31 PM >>> To: david murphy <<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">dmurphy at krix.com.au</A>>; Jean-Luc Ohl <<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">jl at oh...

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<TITLE> [SC-04-08] Comments uploaded by David Murphy </TITLE> pre { white-space: pre-wrap; /* css-2.1, curent FF, Opera, Safari */ } <H1>[SC-04-08] Comments uploaded by David Murphy</H1> John Woodgate <A HREF="mailto:sc-04-08%40standards.aes.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BSC-04-08%5D%20Comments%20uploaded%20by%20David%20Murphy&In-Reply-To=%3C04f601d2733b%2433ee36c0%249bcaa440%24%40btinternet.com%3E" TITLE="[SC-04-08] Comments uploaded by David Murphy">jmw1937 at btinternet.com </A> Fri Jan 20 11:35:25 EST 2017 <UL> <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="000404.html">[SC-04-08] Comments uploaded by David Murphy </A></li> <LI>Next message: <A HREF="000405.html">[SC-04-08] Comments uploaded by David Murphy </A></li> <LI> Messages sorted by: <a href="date.html#407">[ date ]</a> <a href="thread.html#407">[ thread ]</a> <a href="subject.html#407">[ subject ]</a> <a href="author.html#407">[ author ]</a> </LI> </UL> <HR>  <PRE>Standards CAN be changed if people are determined enough. You have to DO it, not leave it to others, and you have to prepare your case well. It may be best to prose a revision of the ISO standard, since these are supposed to be reviewed every 5 years. A proposal submitted by more than one National Committee (e.g. ANSI, BSI, DIN, CSA...) can't be ignored. With best wishes DESIGN IT IN! OOO – Own Opinions Only www.jmwa.demon.co.uk J M Woodgate and Associates Rayleigh England Sylvae in aeternum manent. -----Original Message----- From: SC-04-08 [mailto:<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">sc-04-08-bounces at standards.aes.org</A>] On Behalf Of Brian McCarty via SC-04-08 Sent: Friday, January 20, 2017 4:01 PM To: Gunter Oehme <<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">mail at goehme.de</A>>; Working group on Measurement and equalization of sound systems in rooms <<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">sc-04-08 at standards.aes.org</A>> Cc: David Murphy <<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">dmurphy at krix.com.au</A>>; Philip Newell <<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">philiprnewell at gmail.com</A>> Subject: Re: [SC-04-08] Comments uploaded by David Murphy Gunter, Thanks for your comments. The 25CSS report showed clearly that the “knee” (and in fact the entire X-curve) was NOT applied “on both ends” of the production chain. We know from the 25CSS report that the x-curve was NOT being implemented in any consistent way - irrespective of the measurement methods. Neither at production nor in the cinemas. And, from the 25CSS report we KNOW that the original implementation of the x-curve was flawed, and didn’t reflect even existing acoustical work known by the SMPTE in 1969! (see note below). It in fact is hard to understand how the SMPTE, and later ISO, would even approve such a Standard with the contrary results in the Ljungberg paper at hand, as well as other work going back to the late 1950’s, that showed such a clear difference in perceptual preference. The X-curve is based almost solely on the Allen “Elstree Studio Experiment” (note) that the 25CSS committee tried but failed to replicate. And Dr. Toole has noted the other issues that aren’t explained with the Elstree test in his response earlier. And yet this flawed experiment was used to justify the x-curve. And when you continue to try and get compliance with a known flawed Standard, you get what the 25CSS report found - ad hoc adjustments that ensure NO ONE has complied with ANYTHING. This non-compliance is not just related to the flawed RTA measurement technique. It’s also the commercial reality that has confronted production facilities who want their rooms to sound good. A “modern calibration” technique that’s built on the two flawed principals of S202 (target curve and “listener adjustments”) can never succeed. Brian McCarty NOTE: Ljungberg, L. (1969). “Standardized Sound Reproduction in Cinemas and Control Rooms”, Journal of the SMPTE, vol. 78, pp. 1046-1053. Allen, I (2006). “The X-Curve: Its Origins and History”, SMPTE Mot. Imag. J., vol. 115, pp. 264-273 (July/Aug. 2006). > On Jan 20, 2017, at 05:31, Gunter Oehme via SC-04-08 <<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">sc-04-08 at standards.aes.org</A>> wrote: > > Dear Philip, > > I agree this is a valid question. > > However if I correctly recall the work statement for the SMPTE RP 2096 was to codify the current ST 202 for best practice and the use of more modern measurements methods than RTA as described in ST 202. > Under these constraints it makes sense to use the "standard" X curve target area for DFT measurement too. > > We should keep in mind that the possibly "erroneous" knee is applied on both sides of the cinema production chain for theatrical content: on the production side in the dubbing studios and in the exhibition theaters. > If applied the same way on both ends and if we trust the mixers that they shape the mix to sounds correctly for the artistic intend in the dubbing studio then the "knee" should cancel out of the equation. > This might not happen if the suggest different "knees". > > Best wishes, > Gunter > > -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- > Von: SC-04-08 [mailto:<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">sc-04-08-bounces at standards.aes.org</A>] Im Auftrag von philip newell via SC-04-08 > Gesendet: Freitag, 20. Januar 2017 15:37 > An: Gunter Oehme <<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">mail at goehme.de</A>>; Working group on Measurement and equalization of sound systems in rooms <<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">sc-04-08 at standards.aes.org</A>> > Cc: david murphy <<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">dmurphy at krix.com.au</A>> > Betreff: Re: [SC-04-08] Comments uploaded by David Murphy > > Dear Gunter, > > You ask David, '*But then you are suggesting different response target areas for small and large auditoriums with the roll-off knee at different frequencies. What would be the rational for this difference in responses areas?*' > > Perhaps the greater question is 'what is the rationale for the Knee', other than that the Standard requires it? > > > Best wishes, > > > Philip > > > > > On 20 January 2017 at 15:02, Gunter Oehme via SC-04-08 < <A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">sc-04-08 at standards.aes.org</A>> wrote: > >> Hi David, >> >> I have got a question for you. >> Ref. section E "response target area" >> >> I agree with your comment that the theory of flat response when >> measured X curve with RTA at 2/3 is discredited. >> But then you are suggesting different response target areas for small >> and large auditoriums with the roll-off knee at different frequencies. >> What would be the rational for this difference in responses areas? >> On which parameter would be small and large defined: number of seats, >> room volume, size of floor area, length of auditorium, RT or ...? >> E.g. the SMPTE 25css report does not show evidence that the DFT with >> shorter windows measures a significant different high frequency >> roll-off than RTA. >> Also the report does not show evidence for dependency on room sizes. >> We should be aware that probably most dubbing stages will belong to >> the category "small" and therefore the modified target area would >> apply to dubbing stages. >> My concerns is that those different target areas will not improve the >> translation between dubbing studio and exhibition. >> >> >> Ref section 1.9 "time alignment" >> >> I agree that it is be difficult to interpret the phase response >> measured at primary microphone position due to reflections at lower frequencies. >> My concerns are that your suggestion to place the microphone to an >> elevated position close to the speaker is time consuming and not >> workable in the field. >> It looks easy on a section drawing. But it requires qui...

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<TITLE> [SC-04-08] Moving mic again </TITLE> pre { white-space: pre-wrap; /* css-2.1, curent FF, Opera, Safari */ } <H1>[SC-04-08] Moving mic again</H1> John Murray <A HREF="mailto:sc-04-08%40standards.aes.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BSC-04-08%5D%20Moving%20mic%20again&In-Reply-To=%3C4285D934-EA78-4345-B9FD-8786158ADAA6%40optimumss.com%3E" TITLE="[SC-04-08] Moving mic again">john at optimumss.com </A> Fri Jan 20 18:27:47 EST 2017 <UL> <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="000406.html">[SC-04-08] Moving mic again </A></li> <LI>Next message: <A HREF="000409.html">[SC-04-08] InfoComm Spectral Balance Standard </A></li> <LI> Messages sorted by: <a href="date.html#408">[ date ]</a> <a href="thread.html#408">[ thread ]</a> <a href="subject.html#408">[ subject ]</a> <a href="author.html#408">[ author ]</a> </LI> </UL> <HR>  <PRE>John and All, The InfoComm Spectral Balance standard is to be privately reviewed before March and publicly soon after. We have gone through all the discussions you are currently having for the past 4 years. We have settled on a 2- or 3-part division of the audio bandwidth (room dependent) to accommodate direct-sound analysis at shorter wavelengths and spatial averaging at the longest wavelengths where room modes dominate. You may want to look at where we are now as this may save you a few years in the process. Let me know if you are interested! John Murray, Principal Optimum System Solutions (OSS) 719-332-3456 <A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">john at OptimumSS.com</A> www.OptimumSS.com > On Jan 20, 2017, at 6:52 AM, John Woodgate via SC-04-08 <<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">sc-04-08 at standards.aes.org</A>> wrote: > > This is crucial: > > All the problems start with the room interaction. Here averaging and equalizing > and > balancing with Mid-High section has been an exercise in trial and error in > most cases. Experience counts. > > > This means that the process is an 'art', not a 'science'. There is no analytic > solution because the sound at a point well away from the sources has a mixture > of 'equalizable' and 'non-equalizable' defects. These can be distinguished in a > time-domain display, but EQ, i.e. changing the frequency response of the source, > cannot 'cure' the latter. If you include changing arrival times in the EQ > process, that can work for a certain region, but may well make things worse > elsewhere. > > Simple solution - eliminate the room. Put a loudspeaker in every seat back, so > everyone gets direct sound. Patent applied for (in about 1898 I believe). Used > in the British Parliament building. > > > With best wishes DESIGN IT IN! OOO - Own Opinions Only > www.jmwa.demon.co.uk J M Woodgate and Associates Rayleigh England > > Sylvae in aeternum manent. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: SC-04-08 [mailto:<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">sc-04-08-bounces at standards.aes.org</A>] On Behalf Of Ram--- > via SC-04-08 > Sent: Friday, January 20, 2017 1:31 PM > To: david murphy <<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">dmurphy at krix.com.au</A>>; Jean-Luc Ohl <<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">jl at ohl.to</A>>; Working group > on Measurement and equalization ofsound systems in rooms > <<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">sc-04-08 at standards.aes.org</A>> > Subject: Re: [SC-04-08] Moving mic again > > Hi All, > > When the microphone is moved from front to back we normally encounter > anomalies in the LF region caused by floor dips and boundary encounters. In > the Mid and High frequency crossover region, in most cases there will be > dips caused by displaced drivers. IMHO non of this can be solved by > averaging. > > As far as Mid and High frequencies are concerned, say from 1kHz to 20kHz it > may be preferable to measure the direct arrival in the prime position > usually 2/3 and equalize and correct signal arrival times for the best > results. On the left and right sides(off axis) of the cinema the frequency > response anomalies in the Mid-High section arises due to directivity > problems. This again may not be made better by averaging and equalization. > Precise loudspeaker polar data helps. > > LF sections are mostly flat from 30Hz to 125Hz when close miked. All the > problems start with the room interaction. Here averaging and equalizing and > balancing with Mid-High section has been a exercise in trial and error in > most cases. Experience counts. > > I would look forward to experts comments on the above. > > Thanks and regards, > > Ram > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: david murphy via SC-04-08 > Sent: Friday, January 20, 2017 5:19 PM > To: Jean-Luc Ohl ; Working group on Measurement and equalization ofsound > systems in rooms > Subject: Re: [SC-04-08] Moving mic again > > HI all, > I can see a bit of confusion here! > When John Woodgate said moving microphone I took that to mean that the > microphone was placed in a position near the source (screen) and > measurements taken at that position in space. Then it was moved to the 2/3 > back position (time consuming) and other measurements were taken at that > position ie, microphone also didn't 'move'. > > I didn't intend using a continuous signal and moving while measuring, with > the test system presumably making repeated measurements ie periodically > sampling the frequency response. I have encountered the technique before, > and I s'pose it could give reasonably consistent results. I speed read one > of the papers in the zipped upload, in which there was some diagrams showing > a humanoid waving the microphone at arms length, and also waving it around > on a short stick. > An interesting concept for cinemas. I wonder how big a stick you would need > in order to get consistent results for the LFE, especially in the 30Hz > region, wavelength ~11.5 metres, ~37.5 feet. To avoid a null I would think > you would have to move over a range of at least 1/2 wavelength. > > Anyway, the deadline time is fast approaching. I hope Mark and Richard can > suitably condense our AES comments and send them to SMPTE before their > deadline. > > It seems to me there are two issues: > 1) what technology /techniques you need in order to adjust to a consistent > frequency response across a wide range of cinema (room) sizes and shapes and > 'reverberation' times. > 2) what is the desired target frequency response - the X Curve, a > modification thereof, a simple 'flat' response, or a gradually shelving > response from lower frequencies to higher frequencies, as suggested by Floyd > Toole. > > regards and thanks > David > > David Murphy > Loudspeaker Design Engineer > Commercial Cinema > > Krix > 14 Chapman Road | Hackham SA 5163 | Australia > T +618 83843433 | F +618 83843419 > Email: <A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">dmurphy at krix.com</A> | Web: www.krix.com > > > > DISCLAIMER: > This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential to the > intended recipient and may be privileged. If you are not the intended > recipient, please notify Krix immediately. Whilst we have used software to > alert us to the presence of computer viruses, we cannot guarantee that this > email and any files transmitted with it are free from them. > ________________________________________ > From: SC-04-08 [<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">sc-04-08-bounces at standards.aes.org</A>] On Behalf Of Jean-Luc > Ohl via SC-04-08 [<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">sc-04-08 at standards.aes.org</A>] > Sent: Friday, 20 January 2017 8:49 PM > To: Working group on Measurement and equalization of sound systems in rooms > Subject: [SC-04-08] ...

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<TITLE> [SC-04-08] InfoComm Spectral Balance Standard </TITLE> pre { white-space: pre-wrap; /* css-2.1, curent FF, Opera, Safari */ } <H1>[SC-04-08] InfoComm Spectral Balance Standard</H1> John Murray <A HREF="mailto:sc-04-08%40standards.aes.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BSC-04-08%5D%20InfoComm%20Spectral%20Balance%20Standard&In-Reply-To=%3CD8DF1547-3F60-47E3-8CBA-2D101115B4F8%40OptimumSS.com%3E" TITLE="[SC-04-08] InfoComm Spectral Balance Standard">john at OptimumSS.com </A> Tue Apr 25 14:00:22 EDT 2017 <UL> <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="000408.html">[SC-04-08] Moving mic again </A></li> <LI>Next message: <A HREF="000410.html">[SC-04-08] InfoComm Spectral Balance Standard </A></li> <LI> Messages sorted by: <a href="date.html#409">[ date ]</a> <a href="thread.html#409">[ thread ]</a> <a href="subject.html#409">[ subject ]</a> <a href="author.html#409">[ author ]</a> </LI> </UL> <HR>  <PRE>Hello SC-04-08 group, As promised, here is the latest version of InfoComm’s Spectral Balance Standard. We call it Spectral Balance since balancing a system’s transfer function involves more than just manipulating an equalizer. If anyone in distribution wants to comment, please direct your replies to Michelle Streffon of InfoComm so that she can track them. Do not just reply to the reflector or to just me. Thanks! John Murray, Principal Optimum System Solutions (OSS) 719-332-3456 <A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">john at OptimumSS.com</A> www.OptimumSS.com </PRE>  <HR> <UL>  <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="000408.html">[SC-04-08] Moving mic again </A></li> <LI>Next message: <A HREF="000410.html">[SC-04-08] InfoComm Spectral Balance Standard </A></li> <LI> Messages sorted by: <a href="date.html#409">[ date ]</a> <a href="thread.html#409">[ thread ]</a> <a href="subject.html#409">[ subject ]</a> <a href="author.html#409">[ author ]</a> </LI> </UL> <hr> <a href="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">More information about the SC-04-08 mailing list</a> 

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<TITLE> [SC-04-08] InfoComm Spectral Balance Standard </TITLE> pre { white-space: pre-wrap; /* css-2.1, curent FF, Opera, Safari */ } <H1>[SC-04-08] InfoComm Spectral Balance Standard</H1> Richard Cabot <A HREF="mailto:sc-04-08%40standards.aes.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BSC-04-08%5D%20InfoComm%20Spectral%20Balance%20Standard&In-Reply-To=%3Cde3420ae-e0b6-3036-e074-d605a9785d09%40aes.org%3E" TITLE="[SC-04-08] InfoComm Spectral Balance Standard">standards at aes.org </A> Wed Apr 26 17:52:32 EDT 2017 <UL> <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="000409.html">[SC-04-08] InfoComm Spectral Balance Standard </A></li> <LI>Next message: <A HREF="000411.html">[SC-04-08] InfoComm Spectral Balance Standard </A></li> <LI> Messages sorted by: <a href="date.html#410">[ date ]</a> <a href="thread.html#410">[ thread ]</a> <a href="subject.html#410">[ subject ]</a> <a href="author.html#410">[ author ]</a> </LI> </UL> <HR>  <PRE>John. Documents can't be attached to emails going through the AES reflector. (It's a spam and virus protection issue) Please upload it to the document storage site or email it directly to me and I will upload it for you. rich On 4/25/2017 11:00 AM, John Murray via SC-04-08 wrote: > Hello SC-04-08 group, > > As promised, here is the latest version of InfoComm’s Spectral Balance Standard. We call it Spectral Balance since balancing a system’s transfer function involves more than just manipulating an equalizer. > > If anyone in distribution wants to comment, please direct your replies to Michelle Streffon of InfoComm so that she can track them. Do not just reply to the reflector or to just me. > > Thanks! > > John Murray, Principal > Optimum System Solutions (OSS) > 719-332-3456 > <A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">john at OptimumSS.com</A> > www.OptimumSS.com > > > > > _______________________________________________ > SC-04-08 mailing list > <A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">SC-04-08 at standards.aes.org</A> > <<A HREF="http://standards.aes.org/sc.cfm?ID=91">http://standards.aes.org/sc.cfm?ID=91</A>> </PRE>  <HR> <UL>  <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="000409.html">[SC-04-08] InfoComm Spectral Balance Standard </A></li> <LI>Next message: <A HREF="000411.html">[SC-04-08] InfoComm Spectral Balance Standard </A></li> <LI> Messages sorted by: <a href="date.html#410">[ date ]</a> <a href="thread.html#410">[ thread ]</a> <a href="subject.html#410">[ subject ]</a> <a href="author.html#410">[ author ]</a> </LI> </UL> <hr> <a href="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">More information about the SC-04-08 mailing list</a> 

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<TITLE> [SC-04-08] InfoComm Spectral Balance Standard </TITLE> pre { white-space: pre-wrap; /* css-2.1, curent FF, Opera, Safari */ } <H1>[SC-04-08] InfoComm Spectral Balance Standard</H1> david murphy <A HREF="mailto:sc-04-08%40standards.aes.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BSC-04-08%5D%20InfoComm%20Spectral%20Balance%20Standard&In-Reply-To=%3CDC98EF6CF2F08F40AA5AA23B3509EDA982DF1DB478%40KRIX-DC.Krix.local%3E" TITLE="[SC-04-08] InfoComm Spectral Balance Standard">dmurphy at krix.com.au </A> Thu Apr 27 03:14:11 EDT 2017 <UL> <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="000410.html">[SC-04-08] InfoComm Spectral Balance Standard </A></li> <LI>Next message: <A HREF="000412.html">[SC-04-08] InfoComm Spectral Balance Standard </A></li> <LI> Messages sorted by: <a href="date.html#411">[ date ]</a> <a href="thread.html#411">[ thread ]</a> <a href="subject.html#411">[ subject ]</a> <a href="author.html#411">[ author ]</a> </LI> </UL> <HR>  <PRE>Hi all, John's offer of an InfoComm Standard reminded me that early this year quite a few of us put in comments about a SMPTE Recommended Practice for cinema sound system equalisation. Has there been any feedback from SMPTE? If there has been, can we discuss it in our meeting in Berlin? Please :-). And I for one would really like to read the InfoComm Standard. regards David David Murphy Loudspeaker Design Engineer Commercial Cinema Krix 14 Chapman Road | Hackham SA 5163 | Australia T +618 83843433 | F +618 83843419 Email: <A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">dmurphy at krix.com</A> | Web: www.krix.com DISCLAIMER: This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential to the intended recipient and may be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify Krix immediately. Whilst we have used software to alert us to the presence of computer viruses, we cannot guarantee that this email and any files transmitted with it are free from them. ________________________________________ From: SC-04-08 [<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">sc-04-08-bounces at standards.aes.org</A>] On Behalf Of Richard Cabot via SC-04-08 [<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">sc-04-08 at standards.aes.org</A>] Sent: Thursday, 27 April 2017 7:22 AM To: John Murray; Working group on Measurement and equalization of sound systems in rooms Subject: Re: [SC-04-08] InfoComm Spectral Balance Standard John. Documents can't be attached to emails going through the AES reflector. (It's a spam and virus protection issue) Please upload it to the document storage site or email it directly to me and I will upload it for you. rich On 4/25/2017 11:00 AM, John Murray via SC-04-08 wrote: > Hello SC-04-08 group, > > As promised, here is the latest version of InfoComm’s Spectral Balance Standard. We call it Spectral Balance since balancing a system’s transfer function involves more than just manipulating an equalizer. > > If anyone in distribution wants to comment, please direct your replies to Michelle Streffon of InfoComm so that she can track them. Do not just reply to the reflector or to just me. > > Thanks! > > John Murray, Principal > Optimum System Solutions (OSS) > 719-332-3456 > <A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">john at OptimumSS.com</A> > www.OptimumSS.com > > > > > _______________________________________________ > SC-04-08 mailing list > <A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">SC-04-08 at standards.aes.org</A> > <<A HREF="http://standards.aes.org/sc.cfm?ID=91">http://standards.aes.org/sc.cfm?ID=91</A>> _______________________________________________ SC-04-08 mailing list <A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">SC-04-08 at standards.aes.org</A> <<A HREF="http://standards.aes.org/sc.cfm?ID=91">http://standards.aes.org/sc.cfm?ID=91</A>> </PRE>  <HR> <UL>  <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="000410.html">[SC-04-08] InfoComm Spectral Balance Standard </A></li> <LI>Next message: <A HREF="000412.html">[SC-04-08] InfoComm Spectral Balance Standard </A></li> <LI> Messages sorted by: <a href="date.html#411">[ date ]</a> <a href="thread.html#411">[ thread ]</a> <a href="subject.html#411">[ subject ]</a> <a href="author.html#411">[ author ]</a> </LI> </UL> <hr> <a href="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">More information about the SC-04-08 mailing list</a> 

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<TITLE> [SC-04-08] InfoComm Spectral Balance Standard </TITLE> pre { white-space: pre-wrap; /* css-2.1, curent FF, Opera, Safari */ } <H1>[SC-04-08] InfoComm Spectral Balance Standard</H1> Charlie Hughes <A HREF="mailto:sc-04-08%40standards.aes.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BSC-04-08%5D%20InfoComm%20Spectral%20Balance%20Standard&In-Reply-To=%3C5B9CF13FCBF0BD408B0F0A1F63FA94750109A8EAA5%40EXDAG10-N2%3E" TITLE="[SC-04-08] InfoComm Spectral Balance Standard">charlie at excelsior-audio.com </A> Thu Apr 27 07:06:38 EDT 2017 <UL> <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="000411.html">[SC-04-08] InfoComm Spectral Balance Standard </A></li> <LI>Next message: <A HREF="000413.html">[SC-04-08] InfoComm Spectral Balance Standard </A></li> <LI> Messages sorted by: <a href="date.html#412">[ date ]</a> <a href="thread.html#412">[ thread ]</a> <a href="subject.html#412">[ subject ]</a> <a href="author.html#412">[ author ]</a> </LI> </UL> <HR>  <PRE>Hi Everyone, Please keep in mind that this is a preliminary draft of a new standard from InfoComm. We will be reviewing the comments we receive and possibly making changes based on the feedback received. Best regards, Charlie Hughes Excelsior Audio Gastonia, NC +1 704.675.5435 (tel) +1 704.678.6570 (mobile) www.excelsior-audio.com -----Original Message----- And I for one would really like to read the InfoComm Standard. </PRE>  <HR> <UL>  <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="000411.html">[SC-04-08] InfoComm Spectral Balance Standard </A></li> <LI>Next message: <A HREF="000413.html">[SC-04-08] InfoComm Spectral Balance Standard </A></li> <LI> Messages sorted by: <a href="date.html#412">[ date ]</a> <a href="thread.html#412">[ thread ]</a> <a href="subject.html#412">[ subject ]</a> <a href="author.html#412">[ author ]</a> </LI> </UL> <hr> <a href="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">More information about the SC-04-08 mailing list</a> 

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<TITLE> [SC-04-08] InfoComm Spectral Balance Standard </TITLE> pre { white-space: pre-wrap; /* css-2.1, curent FF, Opera, Safari */ } <H1>[SC-04-08] InfoComm Spectral Balance Standard</H1> Peter Mapp <A HREF="mailto:sc-04-08%40standards.aes.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BSC-04-08%5D%20InfoComm%20Spectral%20Balance%20Standard&In-Reply-To=%3C6c391bf2279b49d7bdd1ffb5318b0fa3%40CP1-L1-MB-2003.CloudPlatform1.com%3E" TITLE="[SC-04-08] InfoComm Spectral Balance Standard">peter at petermapp.com </A> Thu Apr 27 07:35:04 EDT 2017 <UL> <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="000412.html">[SC-04-08] InfoComm Spectral Balance Standard </A></li> <LI>Next message: <A HREF="000414.html">[SC-04-08] InfoComm Spectral Balance Standard </A></li> <LI> Messages sorted by: <a href="date.html#413">[ date ]</a> <a href="thread.html#413">[ thread ]</a> <a href="subject.html#413">[ subject ]</a> <a href="author.html#413">[ author ]</a> </LI> </UL> <HR>  <PRE>Charlie I think you need to clarify your statement "possibly making changes" . The document is riddled with inconsistencies and inaccuracies. If there is only a 'possibility' of changes being made, then it is total waste of time for this group to review it. It is one of the worst draft standard documents that I have read in a while. I am not sure whether the AES will be making a formal submission as per the SMPTE document or if it will be down to individuals to comment. Regards Peter VC SC04-08 -----Original Message----- From: SC-04-08 [mailto:<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">sc-04-08-bounces at standards.aes.org</A>] On Behalf Of Charlie Hughes via SC-04-08 Sent: 27 April 2017 12:07 To: david murphy; Working group on Measurement and equalization of sound systems in rooms; Richard Cabot; John Murray Subject: Re: [SC-04-08] InfoComm Spectral Balance Standard Hi Everyone, Please keep in mind that this is a preliminary draft of a new standard from InfoComm. We will be reviewing the comments we receive and possibly making changes based on the feedback received. Best regards, Charlie Hughes Excelsior Audio Gastonia, NC +1 704.675.5435 (tel) +1 704.678.6570 (mobile) www.excelsior-audio.com<<A HREF="http://www.excelsior-audio.com">http://www.excelsior-audio.com</A>> -----Original Message----- And I for one would really like to read the InfoComm Standard. _______________________________________________ SC-04-08 mailing list <A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">SC-04-08 at standards.aes.org</A><mailto:<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">SC-04-08 at standards.aes.org</A>> <<A HREF="http://standards.aes.org/sc.cfm?ID=91">http://standards.aes.org/sc.cfm?ID=91</A>> </PRE>  <HR> <UL>  <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="000412.html">[SC-04-08] InfoComm Spectral Balance Standard </A></li> <LI>Next message: <A HREF="000414.html">[SC-04-08] InfoComm Spectral Balance Standard </A></li> <LI> Messages sorted by: <a href="date.html#413">[ date ]</a> <a href="thread.html#413">[ thread ]</a> <a href="subject.html#413">[ subject ]</a> <a href="author.html#413">[ author ]</a> </LI> </UL> <hr> <a href="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">More information about the SC-04-08 mailing list</a> 

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