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Documents Folder Title Following special characters are not supported: \ / ? % * : | " < > Privacy Public All Members My Connections Only Me Cancel Create 000080.html 3 KB HTML - Click to view Options Copy Download Link <TITLE> [SC-04-08] AES-X215 B-Chain level measurements </TITLE> pre { white-space: pre-wrap; /* css-2.1, curent FF, Opera, Safari */ } <H1>[SC-04-08] AES-X215 B-Chain level measurements</H1> <B>John Woodgate</B> <A HREF="mailto:sc-04-08%40standards.aes.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BSC-04-08%5D%20AES-X215%20B-Chain%20level%20measurements&In-Reply-To=%3C%2BZEisNAPZj6RFw45%40jmwa.demon.co.uk%3E" TITLE="[SC-04-08] AES-X215 B-Chain level measurements">jmw at jmwa.demon.co.uk </A><BR> <I>Sat Jul 20 01:03:43 MDT 2013</I> <P><UL> <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="000079.html">[SC-04-08] AES-X215 B-Chain level measurements </A></li> <LI>Next message: <A HREF="000081.html">[SC-04-08] AES-X215 B-Chain level measurements </A></li> <LI> <B>Messages sorted by:</B> <a href="date.html#80">[ date ]</a> <a href="thread.html#80">[ thread ]</a> <a href="subject.html#80">[ subject ]</a> <a href="author.html#80">[ author ]</a> </LI> </UL> <HR> <!--beginarticle--> <PRE>In message <<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">8DBDC6D514F3F44B99EA56F331381FE1AD2E7FC0 at mailbox10.lucas.alllucas.com</A>>, dated Fri, 19 Jul 2013, Brian Long <<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">blong at skysound.com</A>> writes: ><i>The point about being consistent with the eventual theater has been and </I>><i>continues to be an often discussed topic. </I>><i> </I>><i>To approach the issue in a way that should be consistent with the </I>><i>eventual theater is, one would assume, to first have a playback </I>><i>environment that conforms to existing standards and is in good working </I>><i>order. </I> What is 'consistent' in this context? What is an 'eventual theatre'? Even more, 'What should be made consistent with what?' -- OOO - Own Opinions Only. See www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Why is the stapler always empty just when you want it? John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK </PRE> <!--endarticle--> <HR> <P><UL> <!--threads--> <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="000079.html">[SC-04-08] AES-X215 B-Chain level measurements </A></li> <LI>Next message: <A HREF="000081.html">[SC-04-08] AES-X215 B-Chain level measurements </A></li> <LI> <B>Messages sorted by:</B> <a href="date.html#80">[ date ]</a> <a href="thread.html#80">[ thread ]</a> <a href="subject.html#80">[ subject ]</a> <a href="author.html#80">[ author ]</a> </LI> </UL> <hr> <a href="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">More information about the SC-04-08 mailing list</a><br> Expand 000081.html 8 KB HTML - Click to view Options Copy Download Link <TITLE> [SC-04-08] AES-X215 B-Chain level measurements </TITLE> pre { white-space: pre-wrap; /* css-2.1, curent FF, Opera, Safari */ } <H1>[SC-04-08] AES-X215 B-Chain level measurements</H1> <B>John Woodgate</B> <A HREF="mailto:sc-04-08%40standards.aes.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BSC-04-08%5D%20AES-X215%20B-Chain%20level%20measurements&In-Reply-To=%3CeuHaR9EA1l6RFwfh%40jmwa.demon.co.uk%3E" TITLE="[SC-04-08] AES-X215 B-Chain level measurements">jmw at jmwa.demon.co.uk </A><BR> <I>Sat Jul 20 03:49:52 MDT 2013</I> <P><UL> <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="000080.html">[SC-04-08] AES-X215 B-Chain level measurements </A></li> <LI>Next message: <A HREF="000082.html">[SC-04-08] AES-X215 B-Chain level measurements </A></li> <LI> <B>Messages sorted by:</B> <a href="date.html#81">[ date ]</a> <a href="thread.html#81">[ thread ]</a> <a href="subject.html#81">[ subject ]</a> <a href="author.html#81">[ author ]</a> </LI> </UL> <HR> <!--beginarticle--> <PRE>In message <<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">7781842E-B7AC-43CA-B43F-C4EE7FE5D403 at coralseastudios.com</A>>, dated Sat, 20 Jul 2013, Brian McCarty <<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">AES.CinemaTVSound at coralseastudios.com</A>> writes: ><i>I laughed spontaneously at your comment "What should be made consistent </I>><i>with what?" This is the core issue at the heart of the discussion, and </I>><i>yet many are running in circles chasing after mythical "solutions" </I>><i>without understanding the problems. </I> That was my impression. In trying to make sense of cinema sound in the context of British Standards, I found a morass of impenetrable discourse but few hard facts. ><i> </I>><i>The film industry has operated with an audio goal that no other aspect </I>><i>of the audio industry has set - "to make the theaters sound the same as </I>><i>the dubbing room". </I> This is actually a very general issue. In the context of recording and reproduction, we can say that for 'classical music' (no electronic instruments) we want to make the reproduction sound the same as in the best seats in the concert hall, and it is (just) possible to do 'live-versus-recorded' tests. But for any other sort of recorded music, there IS no accessible acoustic original and anyway it would have no value because post-processing occurs. This means that 'hi-fi' is meaningless for that sort of music, because there is nothing to compare the reproduction with! (No doubt I will be anathematized for writing that!) ><i> </I>><i>But as two rounds of recent testing have shown, none of the DUBBING </I>><i>rooms even sound the same, with many of them divergent at critical </I>><i>frequencies by 10dB or more. And as the complaints continue to stream </I>><i>in from the movie theaters, these operators are rebelling against the </I>><i>overly-loud films that are now being shipped to them. </I> This seems to be a cyclical problem. I was designing portable record players in the 1960s when the industry was pursuing the loudest possible sound by laying down ever-increasing recorded amplitudes which current piezo cartridges regularly failed to track. After a few years, common sense prevailed and the amplitudes became less extreme. The point is that 'Louder is NOT better if it breaks the reproduction chain.' ><i> </I>><i>There has been testing proposed to do, in part, subjective listening of </I>><i>soundtracks being generated by these same dubbing rooms! The oft </I>><i>quoted Dr. Toole mantra "garbage in - garbage out" springs to mind. </I> Indeed. ><i> </I>><i>Then John you zero in on the other issue that's being ignored. There </I>><i>cannot be any "consistent" in this context because there are no </I>><i>standards that define the playback environment. Some testing has now </I>><i>been proposed for the movie theaters, even though there is no defined </I>><i>standard for acoustical performance. SMPTE S202 doesn't define the </I>><i>playback space. THX, which was a partial attempt to craft a standard </I>><i>for the playback environment, was unsuccessful in doing so and it fell </I>><i>into disuse. </I> Yes, I had some marginal involvement with that; it is a well-founded concept but needed continuing advocacy to prevent its eclipse. ><i> </I>><i>And that's exactly what this AES Standards group is established to do. </I>><i> Seeking "consistency" in audio reproduction requires first defining </I>><i>what parameters need to be understood. Some are having difficulty </I>><i>understanding the relationship of cart:horse. </I> I think the problem as I outlined it above, is that the horse is a phantom horse! As such, of course, the additional presence of headless riders is not a surprise. (;-) But seriously, the solution, in the absence of an original acoustic reference, seems to me to require the making of an assumption - that the recording is 'correct' in all respects, i.e. it faithfully records what was intended. Of course, that ignores the problem of defective dubbing-room acoustics, but I think we have to treat that as a separate issue, which is in urgent need of addressing. Certainly, there is nothing that can be done in the reproducing chain, or standards for it, to compensate for unknown defects in unknown dubbing rooms. It follows from the 'correct' assumption that to re-create the original sound as nearly as possible, the recording must be reproduced by a chain that **adds nothing and takes nothing away**. That means a flat frequency response, with no gross phase artefacts. But the frequency response can't be flat everywhere in the auditorium. No, so we have to make it flat at the 'best seats' and do as well as we can for the others. That will not, of course make the sound the same as it was in a defective dubbing room. Potentially, this could be fixed by adjusting the reproduction chain response for 'best sound at the best seats', but that takes skill which many have but many do not have, and EQ is a dangerous tool in unskilled hands. It obviously requires, also, that the EQ can be adjusted while sitting in a 'best seat' with otologically-normal ears engaged. This may be naive, but going back to very simple basics may be the right way to cut through the jungle. -- OOO - Own Opinions Only. See www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Why is the stapler always empty just when you want it? John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK </PRE> <!--endarticle--> <HR> <P><UL> <!--threads--> <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="000080.html">[SC-04-08] AES-X215 B-Chain level measurements </A></li> <LI>Next message: <A HREF="000082.html">[SC-04-08] AES-X215 B-Chain level measurements </A></li> <LI> <B>Messages sorted by:</B> <a href="date.html#81">[ date ]</a> <a href="thread.html#81">[ thread ]</a> <a href="subject.html#81">[ subject ]</a> <a href="author.html#81">[ author ]</a> </LI> </UL> <hr> <a href="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">More information about the SC-04-08 mailing list</a><br> Expand 000082.html 5 KB HTML - Click to view Options Copy Download Link <TITLE> [SC-04-08] AES-X215 B-Chain level measurements </TITLE> pre { white-space: pre-wrap; /* css-2.1, curent FF, Opera, Safari */ } <H1>[SC-04-08] AES-X215 B-Chain level measurements</H1> <B>Brian McCarty</B> <A HREF="mailto:sc-04-08%40standards.aes.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BSC-04-08%5D%20AES-X215%20B-Chain%20level%20measurements&In-Reply-To=%3C41AAEF95-30A0-43C1-837E-23B5C486F561%40coralseastudios.com%3E" TITLE="[SC-04-08] AES-X215 B-Chain level measurements">bmccarty at coralseastudios.com </A><BR> <I>Sat Jul 20 03:55:22 MDT 2013</I> <P><UL> <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="000081.html">[SC-04-08] AES-X215 B-Chain level measurements </A></li> <LI>Next message: <A HREF="000083.html">[SC-04-08] AES-X215 B-Chain level measurements </A></li> <LI> <B>Messages sorted by:</B> <a href="date.html#82">[ date ]</a> <a href="thread.html#82">[ thread ]</a> <a href="subject.html#82">[ subject ]</a> <a href="author.html#82">[ author ]</a> </LI> </UL> <HR> <!--beginarticle--> <PRE>John, I laughed spontaneously at your comment "What should be made consistent with what?" This is the core issue at the heart of the discussion, and yet many are running in circles chasing after mythical "solutions" without understanding the problems. The film industry has operated with an audio goal that no other aspect of the audio industry has set - "to make the theaters sound the same as the dubbing room". But as two rounds of recent testing have shown, none of the DUBBING rooms even sound the same, with many of them divergent at critical frequencies by 10dB or more. And as the complaints continue to stream in from the movie theaters, these operators are rebelling against the overly-loud films that are now being shipped to them. There has been testing proposed to do, in part, subjective listening of soundtracks being generated by these same dubbing rooms! The oft quoted Dr. Toole mantra "garbage in - garbage out" springs to mind. Then John you zero in on the other issue that's being ignored. There cannot be any "consistent" in this context because there are no standards that define the playback environment. Some testing has now been proposed for the movie theaters, even though there is no defined standard for acoustical performance. SMPTE S202 doesn't define the playback space. THX, which was a partial attempt to craft a standard for the playback environment, was unsuccessful in doing so and it fell into disuse. And that's exactly what this AES Standards group is established to do. Seeking "consistency" in audio reproduction requires first defining what parameters need to be understood. Some are having difficulty understanding the relationship of cart:horse. Brian McCarty Chair TC-SDCTV On 20/07/2013, at 5:03 PM, John Woodgate <<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">jmw at jmwa.demon.co.uk</A>> wrote: ><i> In message writes: </I>><i> </I>>><i> The point about being consistent with the eventual theater has been and continues to be an often discussed topic. </I>>><i> </I>>><i> To approach the issue in a way that should be consistent with the eventual theater is, one would assume, to first have a playback environment that conforms to existing standards and is in good working order. </I>><i> </I>><i> What is 'consistent' in this context? What is an 'eventual theatre'? </I>><i> </I>><i> Even more, 'What should be made consistent with what?' </I>><i> -- </I>><i> OOO - Own Opinions Only. See www.jmwa.demon.co.uk </I>><i> Why is the stapler always empty just when you want it? </I>><i> </I>><i> John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK </I> </PRE> <!--endarticle--> <HR> <P><UL> <!--threads--> <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="000081.html">[SC-04-08] AES-X215 B-Chain level measurements </A></li> <LI>Next message: <A HREF="000083.html">[SC-04-08] AES-X215 B-Chain level measurements </A></li> <LI> <B>Messages sorted by:</B> <a href="date.html#82">[ date ]</a> <a href="thread.html#82">[ thread ]</a> <a href="subject.html#82">[ subject ]</a> <a href="author.html#82">[ author ]</a> </LI> </UL> <hr> <a href="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">More information about the SC-04-08 mailing list</a><br> Expand 000083.html 10 KB HTML - Click to view Options Copy Download Link <TITLE> [SC-04-08] AES-X215 B-Chain level measurements </TITLE> pre { white-space: pre-wrap; /* css-2.1, curent FF, Opera, Safari */ } <H1>[SC-04-08] AES-X215 B-Chain level measurements</H1> <B>david murphy</B> <A HREF="mailto:sc-04-08%40standards.aes.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BSC-04-08%5D%20AES-X215%20B-Chain%20level%20measurements&In-Reply-To=%3CDC98EF6CF2F08F40AA5AA23B3509EDA97386AA5F84%40KRIX-DC.Krix.local%3E" TITLE="[SC-04-08] AES-X215 B-Chain level measurements">dmurphy at krix.com.au </A><BR> <I>Sat Jul 20 07:02:08 MDT 2013</I> <P><UL> <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="000082.html">[SC-04-08] AES-X215 B-Chain level measurements </A></li> <LI>Next message: <A HREF="000085.html">[SC-04-08] AES-X215 B-Chain level measurements </A></li> <LI> <B>Messages sorted by:</B> <a href="date.html#83">[ date ]</a> <a href="thread.html#83">[ thread ]</a> <a href="subject.html#83">[ subject ]</a> <a href="author.html#83">[ author ]</a> </LI> </UL> <HR> <!--beginarticle--> <PRE>Hi Brian, John, yes I think you guys have hit the nails on the head(s). And since there is not much of interest on the TV tonight, here goes! I am given to understand that movie sound tracks are a complete fabrication, in that hardly any of the sound actually took place when the images were shot - it is all (re)created afterwards and mixed together in an acoustic environment which is probably the same for a particular film, but could be quite different for different films. So the chances of a selection of films (or even the same one) sounding the same in a well controlled playback situation are not large, given that the acoustic and playback systems used to create them were not the same, and many of the sounds and effects are not natural and have no live reference for comparison. So....... Step 1 - develop a specification for mixing /dubbing suites - size, aspect ratio, acoustic treatment for reflections and reverberation time (if that is meaningful in smaller spaces), background noise, etc, such that the same film 'sounds' the same and gives the same or similar experience to a panel of experienced listeners in the different venues. Some of the present techniques of acoustics for measuring direct sound, lateral reflections, echoes, RASTI, etc could be useful in this regard if research shows (perhaps already has shown) how they correlate with the perception and rating by experienced listeners. A sub-set is a specification for the B-Chain equipment such that the frequency response is 'flat' (another procedure to be standardised) and the max SPL is achievable with a specified level of distortion. Specifying a reference level and measurement procedure for the SPL is part of this. Step 2 - develop a (less onerous) specification for commercial cinemas for the same parameters as the mixing and dubbing suites, graded maybe premium, normal, and 'no comment' or 'not assessed', perhaps relaxing slightly some of the requirements such as max SPL, and the acoustic measurement numbers to accommodate commercial reality. Step 3 - develop a relatively quick and simple method of carrying out these measurements by technicians in the field. Step 0 - somehow get the cinema designed by acousticians and the B-Chain equipment specified such that the system will meet the appropriate level of specification affordable by the client. And we shouldn't forget the non trivial problem of measuring the array of surround loudspeakers and setting them to some specified frequency response. And/or single surrounds individually addressable as in the proposed 3D sound systems. How to find the reference axis of black coloured loudspeakers in a dark cinema with only a few working lights in order to position the microphone is just one of the challenges :-) I have just written and next week will present a paper at the SMPTE 2013 Australian Conference "Electro-acoustic Measurements on cinema B-Chains in Australia. I used MLSSA to measure and set the direct sound from the screen systems to be flat to about 10kHz (some of these were old bi-amped 2-way systems and I didn't want to break them!), and measured and fine tuned the frequency response using the AcoustX D2 system of RTA pink noise and spatially averaged microphones. I have had to sign a copyright to SMPTE form, but will seek permission at the conference to distribute it to this committee. I found it to be a complex procedure and not easy to do, and I have been using MLSSA to measure loudspeakers for more than 15 years, and have done upwards of 100 cinemas using AcoustX D2. I have found my knowledge of loudspeaker behaviour, polar patterns, and acoustics in general to be extremely useful - knowledge that a technician in the field is very unlikely to have. anyway, my contribution to the debate. best regards to all David Murphy ________________________________________ From: <A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">sc-04-08-bounces at standards.aes.org</A> [<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">sc-04-08-bounces at standards.aes.org</A>] On Behalf Of Brian McCarty [<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">bmccarty at coralseastudios.com</A>] Sent: Saturday, 20 July 2013 7:25 PM To: Working group on Measurement and equalization of sound systems in rooms Cc: <A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">25css-calibration at lists.smpte.org</A> Subject: Re: [SC-04-08] AES-X215 B-Chain level measurements John, I laughed spontaneously at your comment "What should be made consistent with what?" This is the core issue at the heart of the discussion, and yet many are running in circles chasing after mythical "solutions" without understanding the problems. The film industry has operated with an audio goal that no other aspect of the audio industry has set - "to make the theaters sound the same as the dubbing room". But as two rounds of recent testing have shown, none of the DUBBING rooms even sound the same, with many of them divergent at critical frequencies by 10dB or more. And as the complaints continue to stream in from the movie theaters, these operators are rebelling against the overly-loud films that are now being shipped to them. There has been testing proposed to do, in part, subjective listening of soundtracks being generated by these same dubbing rooms! The oft quoted Dr. Toole mantra "garbage in - garbage out" springs to mind. Then John you zero in on the other issue that's being ignored. There cannot be any "consistent" in this context because there are no standards that define the playback environment. Some testing has now been proposed for the movie theaters, even though there is no defined standard for acoustical performance. SMPTE S202 doesn't define the playback space. THX, which was a partial attempt to craft a standard for the playback environment, was unsuccessful in doing so and it fell into disuse. And that's exactly what this AES Standards group is established to do. Seeking "consistency" in audio reproduction requires first defining what parameters need to be understood. Some are having difficulty understanding the relationship of cart:horse. Brian McCarty Chair TC-SDCTV On 20/07/2013, at 5:03 PM, John Woodgate <<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">jmw at jmwa.demon.co.uk</A>> wrote: ><i> In message writes: </I>><i> </I>>><i> The point about being consistent with the eventual theater has been and continues to be an often discussed topic. </I>>><i> </I>>><i> To approach the issue in a way that should be consistent with the eventual theater is, one would assume, to first have a playback environment that conforms to existing standards and is in good working order. </I>><i> </I>><i> What is 'consistent' in this context? What is an 'eventual theatre'? </I>><i> </I>><i> Even more, 'What should be made consistent with what?' </I>><i> -- </I>><i> OOO - Own Opinions Only. See www.jmwa.demon.co.uk </I>><i> Why is the stapler always empty just when you want it? </I>><i> </I>><i> John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK </I> _______________________________________________ SC-04-08 mailing list <A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">SC-04-08 at standards.aes.org</A> <<A HREF="http://standards.aes.org/sc.cfm?ID=91">http://standards.aes.org/sc.cfm?ID=91</A>> </PRE> <!--endarticle--> <HR> <P><UL> <!--threads--> <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="000082.html">[SC-04-08] AES-X215 B-Chain level measurements </A></li> <LI>Next message: <A HREF="000085.html">[SC-04-08] AES-X215 B-Chain level measurements </A></li> <LI> <B>Messages sorted by:</B> <a href="date.html#83">[ date ]</a> <a href="thread.html#83">[ thread ]</a> <a href="subject.html#83">[ subject ]</a> <a href="author.html#83">[ author ]</a> </LI> </UL> <hr> <a href="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">More information about the SC-04-08 mailing list</a><br> Expand 000084.html 21 KB HTML - Click to view Options Copy Download Link <TITLE> [SC-04-08] AES-X215 B-Chain level measurements </TITLE> pre { white-space: pre-wrap; /* css-2.1, curent FF, Opera, Safari */ } <H1>[SC-04-08] AES-X215 B-Chain level measurements</H1> <B>philip newell</B> <A HREF="mailto:sc-04-08%40standards.aes.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BSC-04-08%5D%20AES-X215%20B-Chain%20level%20measurements&In-Reply-To=%3CCAEEhACm5GTuz1ap8E1nO5N4%2B9acVy_ywDjT%3DSg48_xoad_LQyQ%40mail.gmail.com%3E" TITLE="[SC-04-08] AES-X215 B-Chain level measurements">philiprnewell at gmail.com </A><BR> <I>Sat Jul 20 07:50:54 MDT 2013</I> <P><UL> <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="000092.html">[SC-04-08] AES-X215 B-Chain level measurements </A></li> <LI>Next message: <A HREF="000086.html">[SC-04-08] AES-X215 B-Chain level measurements </A></li> <LI> <B>Messages sorted by:</B> <a href="date.html#84">[ date ]</a> <a href="thread.html#84">[ thread ]</a> <a href="subject.html#84">[ subject ]</a> <a href="author.html#84">[ author ]</a> </LI> </UL> <HR> <!--beginarticle--> <PRE>Dear Brian (Long), I think that the only viable way is to try to work to the best standards. As you know, for over 15 years I have been building dubbing theatres with 'high quality' music-recording monitors and with heavily damped acoustics. Yes, simultaneously, other dubbing theatres have been built in the same cities with 'average' cinema loudspeakers, but I still content that the fairest average of all is to work with the best sound quality that you can achieve. The myriad of ways that quality can be compromised makes averaging 'down' virtually meaningless. Trying to mix music so that it sounds as good as it can whilst listening via ear buds in a noisy street only renders the mixes disappointing for just about everybody else. This sort of practice is severely compromising the music business. Many of us still consider that the best way for standardisation is to define the minimum performance requirements from the sources (i.e. loudspeakers plus screens) and then look at reasonably controlling any problematical aspects of the rooms. One-third-octave equalisation has virtually nothing to offer in this philosophy. If the room(s) in which you are carrying out your tests, at Skywalker, are decently acoustically controlled and have reasonably accurate sources (good transient response, smooth spectral response, and low levels of non-linear distortion) together with adequate directivity for the size of audience to be covered, then I think that you tests will be valid for the the proposed tests. Yes, it *is* important to take care of the details, but somebody in a recent SMPTE meeting did bring up the point of 'perfect' being the enemy of good. We can discuss the semantics till the sun swallows us up, but we have some big issues to test, and I think that the conditions which you are describing at Skywalker are well suited to getting the principal questions answered. It is the *big* issues that will set the scene for a major improvement in cinema sound. We can get to the subtleties later (if necessary). I think that what you are proposing to do is both valuable and realistic. It would also be revealing to get peoples impressions of a television film, for example, which had not been mixed with the X-curve, reproduced via your 'flat-from-the-box' screen loudspeakers, without any equalisation other than that necessary for compensating for the 2 pi mounting conditions and any screen loss, which could give an idea of the flavour of a non-X-curve soundtrack. Also, of course, the response of a soundtrack will not be the same in all seating positions and in all rooms. This can never be, but, if the sources are accurate, the ears and brains will compensate for much of this (as Floyd Toole has pointed out on innumerable occasions). Anyhow, this is the case with live orchestras in concert halls. The Berlin Philharmonic still sounds like the Berlin Philharmonic, and The London Symphony Orchestra still sounds like the London Symphony Orchestra, no matter in which hall they are playing nor where a listener is sitting. The rooms cannot change one to sound like the other. The ears recognise the sources, and so these must remain the same, even in cinemas, if consistency is the goal. Different equalisations, other than for the desired adjustment of relatively minimum-phase effects, will change the sources, and hence will act *against* room-to-room compatibility of the perceived sound. Despite the fact that film soundtracks are not all of 'natural' sources, the directors'/sound-designers' decisions about how things *should* sound will be more consistent if the sources are relatively similar. Their common reference must be the sources, even if the sounds are 'artificial'. I am very much looking forwards to the results of your tests. We can nit-pick everything, but I think that you are on a useful track. Best wishes, Philip On 20 July 2013 01:07, Brian Long <<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">blong at skysound.com</A>> wrote: ><i> The point about being consistent with the eventual theater has been and </I>><i> continues to be an often discussed topic. </I>><i> </I>><i> To approach the issue in a way that should be consistent with the eventual </I>><i> theater is, one would assume, to first have a playback environment that </I>><i> conforms to existing standards and is in good working order. </I>><i> </I>><i> Unfortunately this is not often the case and often one will find a theater </I>><i> calibration outside of the calibration window by a large magnitude for a </I>><i> number of reasons. </I>><i> </I>><i> So the question then is consistent with what? The bulk of commercial </I>><i> theaters have a great deal of inconsistencies whether it is system </I>><i> differences, acoustic differences, or arbitrary daily operation policies. </I>><i> </I>><i> Programs like THX were successful in a limited scope and at least brought </I>><i> a formal window of performance to spaces. </I>><i> </I>><i> I will say that the bulk of equipment on the screening room I tend to can </I>><i> be found in commercial theaters, granted the theaters it is found in are </I>><i> not the majority of theaters. </I>><i> </I>><i> So should we be consistent with the best, the worst, or a middle ground? </I>><i> If we are not consistent with the best then what would that mean when </I>><i> material is played back in the best? Might people hear things that were </I>><i> not revealed on a lesser system, a system that is run 9 dB under reference </I>><i> level, or in a room with lots of background noise? Surely this would not </I>><i> be desirable. What then is the difference as you move down to lesser </I>><i> systems/rooms? Is the difference just EQ? Absolutely not. A number of </I>><i> nuisance variables regarding system design, integration, daily operation </I>><i> practices, and performance must be accounted for before one can even begin </I>><i> to talk about EQ as the problem. </I>><i> </I>><i> So the question is be consistent with the best (and most likely a </I>><i> minority) or the mediocre which based on a recent survey often run at 9 dB </I>><i> under reference level? </I>><i> </I>><i> Given the situation at large the only logical way to go about things is to </I>><i> conform to the standards of the day as best as possible with a linear </I>><i> playback system. </I>><i> </I>><i> As "advanced" and well maintained as it might be at the end of the day in </I>><i> my facility the ultimate barometer of success lies with golden ears that </I>><i> have created the material that voice their trust of the translation of our </I>><i> room to the market place through their experiences. </I>><i> </I>><i> Regards, </I>><i> </I>><i> Brian Long </I>><i> </I>><i> -----Original Message----- </I>><i> From: <A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">sc-04-08-bounces at standards.aes.org</A> [mailto: </I>><i> <A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">sc-04-08-bounces at standards.aes.org</A>] On Behalf Of Bob Walker </I>><i> Sent: Friday, July 19, 2013 8:02 AM </I>><i> To: Working group on Measurement and equalization of sound systems in rooms </I>><i> Subject: Re: [SC-04-08] AES-X215 B-Chain level measurements </I>><i> </I>><i> I have received a number of comments on my email of 18/07/13 15:01. I </I>><i> thought I would collate the replies ... </I>><i> </I>><i> On 18/07/2013 15:44, John Woodgate wrote: </I>><i> > In message <<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">51E7F524.9020209 at rlsw.eclipse.co.uk</A>>, dated Thu, 18 Jul </I>><i> > 2013, Bo... Expand This file was truncated for preview. Please download to view the full file. 000085.html 7 KB HTML - Click to view Options Copy Download Link <TITLE> [SC-04-08] AES-X215 B-Chain level measurements </TITLE> pre { white-space: pre-wrap; /* css-2.1, curent FF, Opera, Safari */ } <H1>[SC-04-08] AES-X215 B-Chain level measurements</H1> <B>John Woodgate</B> <A HREF="mailto:sc-04-08%40standards.aes.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BSC-04-08%5D%20AES-X215%20B-Chain%20level%20measurements&In-Reply-To=%3C5i%24TSfIgaq6RFwKN%40jmwa.demon.co.uk%3E" TITLE="[SC-04-08] AES-X215 B-Chain level measurements">jmw at jmwa.demon.co.uk </A><BR> <I>Sat Jul 20 09:02:56 MDT 2013</I> <P><UL> <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="000083.html">[SC-04-08] AES-X215 B-Chain level measurements </A></li> <LI>Next message: <A HREF="000092.html">[SC-04-08] AES-X215 B-Chain level measurements </A></li> <LI> <B>Messages sorted by:</B> <a href="date.html#85">[ date ]</a> <a href="thread.html#85">[ thread ]</a> <a href="subject.html#85">[ subject ]</a> <a href="author.html#85">[ author ]</a> </LI> </UL> <HR> <!--beginarticle--> <PRE>In message <<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">DC98EF6CF2F08F40AA5AA23B3509EDA97386AA5F84 at KRIX-DC.Krix.local</A>>, dated Sat, 20 Jul 2013, david murphy <<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">dmurphy at krix.com.au</A>> writes: ><i>Hi Brian, John, </I>><i>yes I think you guys have hit the nails on the head(s). And since there </I>><i>is not much of interest on the TV tonight, here goes! </I>><i> </I>><i>I am given to understand that movie sound tracks are a complete </I>><i>fabrication, in that hardly any of the sound actually took place when </I>><i>the images were shot - it is all (re)created afterwards and mixed </I>><i>together in an acoustic environment which is probably the same for a </I>><i>particular film, but could be quite different for different films. </I> Indeed. ><i>So the chances of a selection of films (or even the same one) sounding </I>><i>the same in a well controlled playback situation are not large, given </I>><i>that the acoustic and playback systems used to create them were not the </I>><i>same, and many of the sounds and effects are not natural and have no </I>><i>live reference for comparison. </I> It isn't a question of 'sound the same', because they are not necessarily meant to sound the same. The only thing we can try to do is to get 'the sound the makers intended'. ><i> </I>><i>So....... </I>><i>Step 1 - develop a specification for mixing /dubbing suites - size, </I>><i>aspect ratio, acoustic treatment for reflections and reverberation time </I>><i>(if that is meaningful in smaller spaces), background noise, etc, such </I>><i>that the same film 'sounds' the same and gives the same or similar </I>><i>experience to a panel of experienced listeners in the different venues. </I>><i>Some of the present techniques of acoustics for measuring direct sound, </I>><i>lateral reflections, echoes, RASTI, etc could be useful in this regard </I>><i>if research shows (perhaps already has shown) how they correlate with </I>><i>the perception and rating by experienced listeners. A sub-set is a </I>><i>specification for the B-Chain equipment such that the frequency </I>><i>response is 'flat' (another procedure to be standardised) and the max </I>><i>SPL is achievable with a specified level of distortion. Specifying a </I>><i>reference level and measurement procedure for the SPL is part of this. </I> That is a 20-year project, even if enough people sign up to it to make it work. ><i>Step 2 - develop a (less onerous) specification for commercial cinemas </I>><i>for the same parameters as the mixing and dubbing suites, graded maybe </I>><i>premium, normal, and 'no comment' or 'not assessed', perhaps relaxing </I>><i>slightly some of the requirements such as max SPL, and the acoustic </I>><i>measurement numbers to accommodate commercial reality. </I> That, too, seems to me not to be reasonably attainable. ><i>Step 3 - develop a relatively quick and simple method of carrying out </I>><i>these measurements by technicians in the field. </I> Ditto. ><i> </I>><i>Step 0 - somehow get the cinema designed by acousticians and the </I>><i>B-Chain equipment specified such that the system will meet the </I>><i>appropriate level of specification affordable by the client. </I> Maybe next century. Meanwhile, we have a project that need to be completed in just a few short years. ><i> </I>><i>And we shouldn't forget the non trivial problem of measuring the array </I>><i>of surround loudspeakers and setting them to some specified frequency </I>><i>response. And/or single surrounds individually addressable as in the </I>><i>proposed 3D sound systems. How to find the reference axis of black </I>><i>coloured loudspeakers in a dark cinema with only a few working lights </I>><i>in order to position the microphone is just one of the challenges :-) </I> Maybe that is not an essential procedure. ><i> </I> -- OOO - Own Opinions Only. See www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Why is the stapler always empty just when you want it? John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK </PRE> <!--endarticle--> <HR> <P><UL> <!--threads--> <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="000083.html">[SC-04-08] AES-X215 B-Chain level measurements </A></li> <LI>Next message: <A HREF="000092.html">[SC-04-08] AES-X215 B-Chain level measurements </A></li> <LI> <B>Messages sorted by:</B> <a href="date.html#85">[ date ]</a> <a href="thread.html#85">[ thread ]</a> <a href="subject.html#85">[ subject ]</a> <a href="author.html#85">[ author ]</a> </LI> </UL> <hr> <a href="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">More information about the SC-04-08 mailing list</a><br> Expand 000086.html 4 KB HTML - Click to view Options Copy Download Link <TITLE> [SC-04-08] AES-X215 B-Chain level measurements </TITLE> pre { white-space: pre-wrap; /* css-2.1, curent FF, Opera, Safari */ } <H1>[SC-04-08] AES-X215 B-Chain level measurements</H1> <B>John Woodgate</B> <A HREF="mailto:sc-04-08%40standards.aes.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BSC-04-08%5D%20AES-X215%20B-Chain%20level%20measurements&In-Reply-To=%3CJC0fq1IOgq6RFwO2%40jmwa.demon.co.uk%3E" TITLE="[SC-04-08] AES-X215 B-Chain level measurements">jmw at jmwa.demon.co.uk </A><BR> <I>Sat Jul 20 09:09:02 MDT 2013</I> <P><UL> <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="000084.html">[SC-04-08] AES-X215 B-Chain level measurements </A></li> <LI>Next message: <A HREF="000087.html">[SC-04-08] AES-X215 B-Chain level measurements </A></li> <LI> <B>Messages sorted by:</B> <a href="date.html#86">[ date ]</a> <a href="thread.html#86">[ thread ]</a> <a href="subject.html#86">[ subject ]</a> <a href="author.html#86">[ author ]</a> </LI> </UL> <HR> <!--beginarticle--> <PRE>In message <CAEEhACm5GTuz1ap8E1nO5N4+9acVy_ywDjT=<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">Sg48_xoad_LQyQ at mail.gmail.com</A>>, dated Sat, 20 Jul 2013, philip newell <<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">philiprnewell at gmail.com</A>> writes: ><i> Many of us still consider that the best </I>><i>way for standardisation is to define the minimum performance </I>><i>requirements from the sources (i.e. loudspeakers plus screens) and then </I>><i>look at reasonably controlling any problematical aspects of the rooms. </I>><i>One-third-octave equalisation has virtually nothing to offer in this </I>><i>philosophy. </I> I think the point here is to say what HAS something to offer. Telling us that what is very possibly the only EQ resource we are likely to find in a system is of no use may well be technically correct, but it is not very helpful. ><i> </I>><i> If the room(s) in which you are carrying </I>><i>out your tests, at Skywalker, are decently acoustically controlled and </I>><i>have reasonably accurate sources (good transient response, smooth </I>><i>spectral response, and low levels of non-linear distortion) together </I>><i>with adequate directivity for the size of audience to be covered, then </I>><i>I think that you tests will be valid for the the proposed tests. </I> Do rooms introduce non-linearity distortion? Apart from things that rattle? ><i> </I> -- OOO - Own Opinions Only. See www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Why is the stapler always empty just when you want it? John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK </PRE> <!--endarticle--> <HR> <P><UL> <!--threads--> <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="000084.html">[SC-04-08] AES-X215 B-Chain level measurements </A></li> <LI>Next message: <A HREF="000087.html">[SC-04-08] AES-X215 B-Chain level measurements </A></li> <LI> <B>Messages sorted by:</B> <a href="date.html#86">[ date ]</a> <a href="thread.html#86">[ thread ]</a> <a href="subject.html#86">[ subject ]</a> <a href="author.html#86">[ author ]</a> </LI> </UL> <hr> <a href="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">More information about the SC-04-08 mailing list</a><br> Expand 000087.html 5 KB HTML - Click to view Options Copy Download Link <TITLE> [SC-04-08] AES-X215 B-Chain level measurements </TITLE> pre { white-space: pre-wrap; /* css-2.1, curent FF, Opera, Safari */ } <H1>[SC-04-08] AES-X215 B-Chain level measurements</H1> <B>philip newell</B> <A HREF="mailto:sc-04-08%40standards.aes.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BSC-04-08%5D%20AES-X215%20B-Chain%20level%20measurements&In-Reply-To=%3CCAEEhACkEfry9wA2hmEk4G76qRVQR%2BJybMkud4KyGFrkN0aGyyg%40mail.gmail.com%3E" TITLE="[SC-04-08] AES-X215 B-Chain level measurements">philiprnewell at gmail.com </A><BR> <I>Sat Jul 20 11:51:50 MDT 2013</I> <P><UL> <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="000086.html">[SC-04-08] AES-X215 B-Chain level measurements </A></li> <LI>Next message: <A HREF="000088.html">[SC-04-08] AES-X215 B-Chain level measurements </A></li> <LI> <B>Messages sorted by:</B> <a href="date.html#87">[ date ]</a> <a href="thread.html#87">[ thread ]</a> <a href="subject.html#87">[ subject ]</a> <a href="author.html#87">[ author ]</a> </LI> </UL> <HR> <!--beginarticle--> <PRE>Dear John, The non-linearity referred to the sources. Evidently I missed out a comma after 'controlled'! Best wishes, Philip On 20 July 2013 17:09, John Woodgate <<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">jmw at jmwa.demon.co.uk</A>> wrote: ><i> In message <CAEEhACm5GTuz1ap8E1nO5N4+**9acVy_ywDjT=Sg48_xoad_LQyQ@** </I>><i> mail.gmail.com <<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">Sg48_xoad_LQyQ at mail.gmail.com</A>>>, dated Sat, 20 Jul 2013, </I>><i> philip newell <<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">philiprnewell at gmail.com</A>> writes: </I>><i> </I>><i> Many of us still consider that the best way </I>>><i> for standardisation is to define the minimum performance requirements from </I>>><i> the sources (i.e. loudspeakers plus screens) and then look at reasonably </I>>><i> controlling any problematical aspects of the rooms. One-third-octave </I>>><i> equalisation has virtually nothing to offer in this philosophy. </I>>><i> </I>><i> </I>><i> I think the point here is to say what HAS something to offer. Telling us </I>><i> that what is very possibly the only EQ resource we are likely to find in a </I>><i> system is of no use may well be technically correct, but it is not very </I>><i> helpful. </I>><i> </I>><i> </I>>><i> If the room(s) in which you are carrying out </I>>><i> your tests, at Skywalker, are decently acoustically controlled and have </I>>><i> reasonably accurate sources (good transient response, smooth spectral </I>>><i> response, and low levels of non-linear distortion) together with adequate </I>>><i> directivity for the size of audience to be covered, then I think that you </I>>><i> tests will be valid for the the proposed tests. </I>>><i> </I>><i> </I>><i> Do rooms introduce non-linearity distortion? Apart from things that rattle? </I>><i> </I>><i> </I>>><i> </I>><i> -- </I>><i> OOO - Own Opinions Only. See www.jmwa.demon.co.uk </I>><i> Why is the stapler always empty just when you want it? </I>><i> </I>><i> John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK </I>><i> ______________________________**_________________ </I>><i> SC-04-08 mailing list </I>><i> <A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">SC-04-08 at standards.aes.org</A> </I>><i> <<A HREF="http://standards.aes.org/sc.**cfm?ID=91<http://standards.aes.org/sc.cfm?ID=91">http://standards.aes.org/sc.**cfm?ID=91<http://standards.aes.org/sc.cfm?ID=91</A>> </I>><i> > </I>><i> </I></PRE> <!--endarticle--> <HR> <P><UL> <!--threads--> <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="000086.html">[SC-04-08] AES-X215 B-Chain level measurements </A></li> <LI>Next message: <A HREF="000088.html">[SC-04-08] AES-X215 B-Chain level measurements </A></li> <LI> <B>Messages sorted by:</B> <a href="date.html#87">[ date ]</a> <a href="thread.html#87">[ thread ]</a> <a href="subject.html#87">[ subject ]</a> <a href="author.html#87">[ author ]</a> </LI> </UL> <hr> <a href="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">More information about the SC-04-08 mailing list</a><br> Expand 000088.html 3 KB HTML - Click to view Options Copy Download Link <TITLE> [SC-04-08] AES-X215 B-Chain level measurements </TITLE> pre { white-space: pre-wrap; /* css-2.1, curent FF, Opera, Safari */ } <H1>[SC-04-08] AES-X215 B-Chain level measurements</H1> <B>John Woodgate</B> <A HREF="mailto:sc-04-08%40standards.aes.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BSC-04-08%5D%20AES-X215%20B-Chain%20level%20measurements&In-Reply-To=%3CjUX1fVMDCt6RFw7L%40jmwa.demon.co.uk%3E" TITLE="[SC-04-08] AES-X215 B-Chain level measurements">jmw at jmwa.demon.co.uk </A><BR> <I>Sat Jul 20 12:01:39 MDT 2013</I> <P><UL> <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="000087.html">[SC-04-08] AES-X215 B-Chain level measurements </A></li> <LI>Next message: <A HREF="000089.html">[SC-04-08] AES-X215 B-Chain level measurements </A></li> <LI> <B>Messages sorted by:</B> <a href="date.html#88">[ date ]</a> <a href="thread.html#88">[ thread ]</a> <a href="subject.html#88">[ subject ]</a> <a href="author.html#88">[ author ]</a> </LI> </UL> <HR> <!--beginarticle--> <PRE>In message <<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">CAEEhACkEfry9wA2hmEk4G76qRVQR+JybMkud4KyGFrkN0aGyyg at mail.gmail.com</A>>, dated Sat, 20 Jul 2013, philip newell <<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">philiprnewell at gmail.com</A>> writes: ><i> The non-linearity referred to the sources. Evidently I missed out a </I>><i>comma after 'controlled'! </I> I think I misread it. Anyway, thank you for prompt response. What can we use instead of third-octave EQ? -- OOO - Own Opinions Only. See www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Why is the stapler always empty just when you want it? John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK </PRE> <!--endarticle--> <HR> <P><UL> <!--threads--> <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="000087.html">[SC-04-08] AES-X215 B-Chain level measurements </A></li> <LI>Next message: <A HREF="000089.html">[SC-04-08] AES-X215 B-Chain level measurements </A></li> <LI> <B>Messages sorted by:</B> <a href="date.html#88">[ date ]</a> <a href="thread.html#88">[ thread ]</a> <a href="subject.html#88">[ subject ]</a> <a href="author.html#88">[ author ]</a> </LI> </UL> <hr> <a href="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">More information about the SC-04-08 mailing list</a><br> Expand 000089.html 4 KB HTML - Click to view Options Copy Download Link <TITLE> [SC-04-08] AES-X215 B-Chain level measurements </TITLE> pre { white-space: pre-wrap; /* css-2.1, curent FF, Opera, Safari */ } <H1>[SC-04-08] AES-X215 B-Chain level measurements</H1> <B>Brian Long</B> <A HREF="mailto:sc-04-08%40standards.aes.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BSC-04-08%5D%20AES-X215%20B-Chain%20level%20measurements&In-Reply-To=%3CDC7867FC-0A7D-4789-B730-31CE9D2C9FF4%40skysound.com%3E" TITLE="[SC-04-08] AES-X215 B-Chain level measurements">blong at skysound.com </A><BR> <I>Sat Jul 20 13:28:29 MDT 2013</I> <P><UL> <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="000088.html">[SC-04-08] AES-X215 B-Chain level measurements </A></li> <LI>Next message: <A HREF="000090.html">[SC-04-08] AES-X215 B-Chain level measurements </A></li> <LI> <B>Messages sorted by:</B> <a href="date.html#89">[ date ]</a> <a href="thread.html#89">[ thread ]</a> <a href="subject.html#89">[ subject ]</a> <a href="author.html#89">[ author ]</a> </LI> </UL> <HR> <!--beginarticle--> <PRE>While this octave EQ is what is most often built in commercial processors a fair number of facilities use or are moving to products such as sound webs, media matrix nion, Dolby lake contours, and meyer sound galileos. Additionally all in one processors are beginning to see increased feature sets beyond third octave. I would encourage members of the group to look at what current market offerings are. The challenge if course is getting the commercial market to think that such tools are worth the additional cost. Regards, Brian Ling -sent from mobile device On Jul 20, 2013, at 11:07 AM, "John Woodgate" <<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">jmw at jmwa.demon.co.uk</A>> wrote: ><i> In message <<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">CAEEhACkEfry9wA2hmEk4G76qRVQR+JybMkud4KyGFrkN0aGyyg at mail.gmail.com</A>>, dated Sat, 20 Jul 2013, philip newell <<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">philiprnewell at gmail.com</A>> writes: </I>><i> </I>>><i> The non-linearity referred to the sources. Evidently I missed out a comma after 'controlled'! </I>><i> </I>><i> I think I misread it. Anyway, thank you for prompt response. </I>><i> </I>><i> What can we use instead of third-octave EQ? </I>><i> -- </I>><i> OOO - Own Opinions Only. See www.jmwa.demon.co.uk </I>><i> Why is the stapler always empty just when you want it? </I>><i> </I>><i> John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK </I>><i> _______________________________________________ </I>><i> SC-04-08 mailing list </I>><i> <A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">SC-04-08 at standards.aes.org</A> </I>><i> <<A HREF="http://standards.aes.org/sc.cfm?ID=91">http://standards.aes.org/sc.cfm?ID=91</A>> </I></PRE> <!--endarticle--> <HR> <P><UL> <!--threads--> <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="000088.html">[SC-04-08] AES-X215 B-Chain level measurements </A></li> <LI>Next message: <A HREF="000090.html">[SC-04-08] AES-X215 B-Chain level measurements </A></li> <LI> <B>Messages sorted by:</B> <a href="date.html#89">[ date ]</a> <a href="thread.html#89">[ thread ]</a> <a href="subject.html#89">[ subject ]</a> <a href="author.html#89">[ author ]</a> </LI> </UL> <hr> <a href="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">More information about the SC-04-08 mailing list</a><br> Expand 0 Comments Public All Members My Connections Only Me PublicAll MembersMy ConnectionsOnly Me Public All Members My Connections Only Me
