​

   <TITLE> [SC-04-08] Nonsense

   </TITLE>

       pre {

           white-space: pre-wrap;       /* css-2.1, curent FF, Opera, Safari */

           }

   <H1>[SC-04-08] Nonsense</H1>

    <B>philip newell</B> 

    <A HREF="mailto:sc-04-08%40standards.aes.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BSC-04-08%5D%20Nonsense&In-Reply-To=%3CCAEEhACk%3DsVUgGJhf%3DnkqZJAs%2BjQ6-_GgUSaWeY6nEV%2B8QRD6oQ%40mail.gmail.com%3E" TITLE="[SC-04-08] Nonsense">philiprnewell at gmail.com

       </A><BR>

    <I>Tue May 14 07:53:11 MDT 2013</I>

    <P><UL>

        <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="000020.html">[SC-04-08] About bad frequencies in room calibration (AES-X218, X219)

</A></li>

        <LI>Next message: <A HREF="000011.html">[SC-04-08] Nonsense

</A></li>

         <LI> <B>Messages sorted by:</B> 

              <a href="date.html#10">[ date ]</a>

              <a href="thread.html#10">[ thread ]</a>

              <a href="subject.html#10">[ subject ]</a>

              <a href="author.html#10">[ author ]</a>

         </LI>

       </UL>

    <HR>  

<!--beginarticle-->

<PRE>Dear All,

​

            The confusion about the X-curve is now so great that I even

found the following in the instruction manual for some Tannoy active

monitors. More mis-information, I believe, about the X-curve. There is no

way of stopping this nonsense now. The situation is rotten to the core. The

only solution seems to be the introduction of a totally new, clearly

explained and technically justifiable calibration regime.

Tannoy ACTIVE STUDIO MONITORS Owners Manual (Page 50 of

56)<<A HREF="http://www.google.es/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=15&cad=rja&ved=0CD0QFjAEOAo&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.manualslib.com%2Fmanual%2F168283%2FTannoy-Active-Studio-Monitors.html%3Fpage%3D50&ei=qBs-UZTSIIuKhQeUioGgBg&usg=AFQjCNHTpALw-hamL-JAWNnD0ghVjII5Yw&sig2=bisO_mOG1AM_b2r7a4o8dA&bvm=bv.43287494,d.ZG4">http://www.google.es/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=15&cad=rja&ved=0CD0QFjAEOAo&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.manualslib.com%2Fmanual%2F168283%2FTannoy-Active-Studio-Monitors.html%3Fpage%3D50&ei=qBs-UZTSIIuKhQeUioGgBg&usg=AFQjCNHTpALw-hamL-JAWNnD0ghVjII5Yw&sig2=bisO_mOG1AM_b2r7a4o8dA&bvm=bv.43287494,d.ZG4</A>>X

– Curves Explained

For small rooms, defined as less than 5300 cubic feet or 150 cubic meters,

ANSI/SMPTE 222M calls for a modification

of the X-curve with flat natural response to 2kHz and then a 1.5dB per

octave roll off above 2 kHz. *This curve is useful*

* *

*when mixing in a small room and playing back in a large room.*

Another variation on the curve is to begin the high-end roll off at 4 kHz

and roll off 3dB per octave instead of 1.5 per

octave.

​

​

             This is total rubbish!

​

             Does anybody have any further comment before I write to Tannoy

to ask them where they got this information from?

​

​

                                                                Best wishes,

​

​

​

Philip

</PRE>

​

​

​

​

<!--endarticle-->

    <HR>

    <P><UL>

        <!--threads-->

    <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="000020.html">[SC-04-08] About bad frequencies in room calibration (AES-X218, X219)

</A></li>

    <LI>Next message: <A HREF="000011.html">[SC-04-08] Nonsense

</A></li>

         <LI> <B>Messages sorted by:</B> 

              <a href="date.html#10">[ date ]</a>

              <a href="thread.html#10">[ thread ]</a>

              <a href="subject.html#10">[ subject ]</a>

              <a href="author.html#10">[ author ]</a>

         </LI>

       </UL>

​

<hr>

<a href="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">More information about the SC-04-08

mailing list</a><br>

​

​

​

   <TITLE> [SC-04-08] Nonsense

   </TITLE>

       pre {

           white-space: pre-wrap;       /* css-2.1, curent FF, Opera, Safari */

           }

   <H1>[SC-04-08] Nonsense</H1>

    <B>John Woodgate</B> 

    <A HREF="mailto:sc-04-08%40standards.aes.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BSC-04-08%5D%20Nonsense&In-Reply-To=%3CLubfRyAIjkkRFw9F%40jmwa.demon.co.uk%3E" TITLE="[SC-04-08] Nonsense">jmw at jmwa.demon.co.uk

       </A><BR>

    <I>Tue May 14 08:23:04 MDT 2013</I>

    <P><UL>

        <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="000010.html">[SC-04-08] Nonsense

</A></li>

        <LI>Next message: <A HREF="000016.html">[SC-04-08] Nonsense

</A></li>

         <LI> <B>Messages sorted by:</B> 

              <a href="date.html#11">[ date ]</a>

              <a href="thread.html#11">[ thread ]</a>

              <a href="subject.html#11">[ subject ]</a>

              <a href="author.html#11">[ author ]</a>

         </LI>

       </UL>

    <HR>  

<!--beginarticle-->

<PRE>In message 

<CAEEhACk=sVUgGJhf=<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">nkqZJAs+jQ6-_GgUSaWeY6nEV+8QRD6oQ at mail.gmail.com</A>>, 

dated Tue, 14 May 2013, philip newell <<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">philiprnewell at gmail.com</A>> writes:

​

><i>X – Curves Explained

</I>><i>For small rooms, defined as less than 5300 cubic feet or 150 cubic 

</I>><i>meters, ANSI/SMPTE 222M calls for a modification

</I>><i>of the X-curve with flat natural response to 2kHz and then a 1.5dB per 

</I>><i>octave roll off above 2 kHz. This curve is useful

</I>><i>when mixing in a small room and playing back in a large room.

</I>><i>Another variation on the curve is to begin the high-end roll off at 4 

</I>><i>kHz and roll off 3dB per octave instead of 1.5 per

</I>><i>octave.

</I>><i>

</I>><i>

</I>><i>             This is total rubbish!

</I>><i>

</I>><i>             Does anybody have any further comment before I 

</I>><i>write to Tannoy to ask them where they got this information from?

</I>

You may be right, but is the Tannoy idea actually to compensate for 

high-frequency attenuation with distance in the large room by 

pre-emphasising those frequencies when mixing in the small room? I think 

a case could be made for that, but I wouldn't bet on an acquittal!

-- 

OOO - Own Opinions Only. See www.jmwa.demon.co.uk

They took me to a specialist burns unit - and made me learn 'To a haggis'.

​

John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK

</PRE>

​

​

​

​

​

<!--endarticle-->

    <HR>

    <P><UL>

        <!--threads-->

    <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="000010.html">[SC-04-08] Nonsense

</A></li>

    <LI>Next message: <A HREF="000016.html">[SC-04-08] Nonsense

</A></li>

         <LI> <B>Messages sorted by:</B> 

              <a href="date.html#11">[ date ]</a>

              <a href="thread.html#11">[ thread ]</a>

              <a href="subject.html#11">[ subject ]</a>

              <a href="author.html#11">[ author ]</a>

         </LI>

       </UL>

​

<hr>

<a href="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">More information about the SC-04-08

mailing list</a><br>

​

​

​

   <TITLE> [SC-04-08] Nonsense

   </TITLE>

       pre {

           white-space: pre-wrap;       /* css-2.1, curent FF, Opera, Safari */

           }

   <H1>[SC-04-08] Nonsense</H1>

    <B>Mark Yonge</B> 

    <A HREF="mailto:sc-04-08%40standards.aes.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BSC-04-08%5D%20Nonsense&In-Reply-To=%3C935D13F4-36CD-4602-A829-938EA27E0BF5%40aes.org%3E" TITLE="[SC-04-08] Nonsense">standards at aes.org

       </A><BR>

    <I>Tue May 14 08:57:28 MDT 2013</I>

    <P><UL>

        <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="000016.html">[SC-04-08] Nonsense

</A></li>

        <LI>Next message: <A HREF="000013.html">[SC-04-08] Nonsense

</A></li>

         <LI> <B>Messages sorted by:</B> 

              <a href="date.html#12">[ date ]</a>

              <a href="thread.html#12">[ thread ]</a>

              <a href="subject.html#12">[ subject ]</a>

              <a href="author.html#12">[ author ]</a>

         </LI>

       </UL>

    <HR>  

<!--beginarticle-->

<PRE>Dear Philip,

​

I understand the technical issues you mention in your note, but I have to clarify a few procedural issues. This isn't aimed particularly at you, however in a new AESSC group like SC-04-08, someone was certainly going to write a note like this, and it happens that you're the first! 

​

Here goes:

​

•   SC-04-08 is a standards working group with a defined scope working on specific projects, each with a defined scope. It does not operate as an open-ended chat group. Relevant information, proposed text, and technical comment is always welcome; emotive commentary less so. 

​

•   Please do not copy working-group correspondence to others. Send messages for the group to the email reflector only. If you feel that others should be involved in the work of SC-04-08, please invite them to read the information at <A HREF="http://www.aes.org/standards/development/membership.cfm">http://www.aes.org/standards/development/membership.cfm</A> and fill in the on-line form as appropriate.

   Why?  As a member of an AES standards working group, you are bound by our confidentiality rule; discussions and drafts within the working group are held confidentially until such time as a document is formally published following our due process. This is principally to avoid public confusion with stories that may or may not have demonstrated the consensus necessary for a published document. More (much more) at <A HREF="http://www.aes.org/standards/development/rules.cfm.">http://www.aes.org/standards/development/rules.cfm.</A>

​

•   You can see a list of the working group members when you log into the AESSC members atrium using the login provided (should be the same as your regular AES login) and click on the link to the working group. A direct login is available at:

<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/standards/sc.cfm?ID=91">https://secure.aes.org/standards/sc.cfm?ID=91</A>

​

•   I fully understand why you find the information in that manual objectionable. However please bear in mind that when you write to the company, you are doing so on your own behalf and not as any kind of representative of the AESSC or its working group. 

​

If you have any questions, on this or any other matter concerned with the work of the AESSC, please call or Skype - I'm always happy to talk.

​

best regards,

​

Mark Yonge

AES Standards Manager

and Due-Process Referee

​

tel: +44 1594 517200

skype: markyonge

​

On 2013-05-14, at 14:53, philip newell wrote:

​

><i> Dear All,

</I>><i> 

</I>><i>            The confusion about the X-curve is now so great that I even

</I>><i> found the following in the instruction manual for some Tannoy active

</I>><i> monitors. More mis-information, I believe, about the X-curve. There is no

</I>><i> way of stopping this nonsense now. The situation is rotten to the core. The

</I>><i> only solution seems to be the introduction of a totally new, clearly

</I>><i> explained and technically justifiable calibration regime.

</I>><i> Tannoy ACTIVE STUDIO MONITORS Owners Manual (Page 50 of

</I>><i> 56)<<A HREF="http://www.google.es/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=15&cad=rja&ved=0CD0QFjAEOAo&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.manualslib.com%2Fmanual%2F168283%2FTannoy-Active-Studio-Monitors.html%3Fpage%3D50&ei=qBs-UZTSIIuKhQeUioGgBg&usg=AFQjCNHTpALw-hamL-JAWNnD0ghVjII5Yw&sig2=bisO_mOG1AM_b2r7a4o8dA&bvm=bv.43287494,d.ZG4">http://www.google.es/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=15&cad=rja&ved=0CD0QFjAEOAo&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.manualslib.com%2Fmanual%2F168283%2FTannoy-Active-Studio-Monitors.html%3Fpage%3D50&ei=qBs-UZTSIIuKhQeUioGgBg&usg=AFQjCNHTpALw-hamL-JAWNnD0ghVjII5Yw&sig2=bisO_mOG1AM_b2r7a4o8dA&bvm=bv.43287494,d.ZG4</A>>X

</I>><i> – Curves Explained

</I>><i> For small rooms, defined as less than 5300 cubic feet or 150 cubic meters,

</I>><i> ANSI/SMPTE 222M calls for a modification

</I>><i> of the X-curve with flat natural response to 2kHz and then a 1.5dB per

</I>><i> octave roll off above 2 kHz. *This curve is useful*

</I>><i> * *

</I>><i> *when mixing in a small room and playing back in a large room.*

</I>><i> Another variation on the curve is to begin the high-end roll off at 4 kHz

</I>><i> and roll off 3dB per octave instead of 1.5 per

</I>><i> octave.

</I>><i> 

</I>><i> 

</I>><i>             This is total rubbish!

</I>><i> 

</I>><i>             Does anybody have any further comment before I write to Tannoy

</I>><i> to ask them where they got this information from?

</I>><i> 

</I>><i> 

</I>><i>                                                                Best wishes,

</I>><i> 

</I>><i> 

</I>><i> 

</I>><i> Philip

</I>><i> _______________________________________________

</I>><i> SC-04-08 mailing list

</I>><i> <A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">SC-04-08 at standards.aes.org</A>

</I>><i> <<A HREF="http://standards.aes.org/sc.cfm?ID=91">http://standards.aes.org/sc.cfm?ID=91</A>>

</I>

Mark Yonge

AES Standards Manager

​

<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">standards at aes.org</A>

tel: +44 1594 517200

skype: markyonge

​

​

​

​

</PRE>

​

​

​

​

​

<!--endarticle-->

    <HR>

    <P><UL>

        <!--threads-->

    <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="000016.html">[SC-04-08] Nonsense

</A></li>

    <LI>Next message: <A HREF="000013.html">[SC-04-08] Nonsense

</A></li>

         <LI> <B>Messages sorted by:</B> 

              <a href="date.html#12">[ date ]</a>

              <a href="thread.html#12">[ thread ]</a>

              <a href="subject.html#12">[ subject ]</a>

              <a href="author.html#12">[ author ]</a>

         </LI>

       </UL>

​

<hr>

<a href="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">More information about the SC-04-08

mailing list</a><br>

​

​

​

   <TITLE> [SC-04-08] Nonsense

   </TITLE>

       pre {

           white-space: pre-wrap;       /* css-2.1, curent FF, Opera, Safari */

           }

   <H1>[SC-04-08] Nonsense</H1>

    <B>John Woodgate</B> 

    <A HREF="mailto:sc-04-08%40standards.aes.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BSC-04-08%5D%20Nonsense&In-Reply-To=%3CFv9MxXDQUlkRFwNk%40jmwa.demon.co.uk%3E" TITLE="[SC-04-08] Nonsense">jmw at jmwa.demon.co.uk

       </A><BR>

    <I>Tue May 14 09:15:28 MDT 2013</I>

    <P><UL>

        <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="000012.html">[SC-04-08] Nonsense

</A></li>

        <LI>Next message: <A HREF="000014.html">[SC-04-08] Nonsense

</A></li>

         <LI> <B>Messages sorted by:</B> 

              <a href="date.html#13">[ date ]</a>

              <a href="thread.html#13">[ thread ]</a>

              <a href="subject.html#13">[ subject ]</a>

              <a href="author.html#13">[ author ]</a>

         </LI>

       </UL>

    <HR>  

<!--beginarticle-->

<PRE>In message <<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">935D13F4-36CD-4602-A829-938EA27E0BF5 at aes.org</A>>, dated Tue, 14 

May 2013, Mark Yonge <<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">standards at aes.org</A>> writes:

​

><i>•      Please do not copy working-group correspondence to others. 

</I>><i>Send messages for the group to the email reflector only.

</I>

That isn't very sensible. All it does is force people to send the same 

message twice; once to the reflector and once to everyone else that the 

sender wishes to inform (probably also telling them he has sent the 

message to AESSC as well). I can't see that there is a real 

confidentiality issue.

​

Even the secret society known as BSI doesn't impose such a condition on 

its correspondents.

-- 

OOO - Own Opinions Only. See www.jmwa.demon.co.uk

They took me to a specialist burns unit - and made me learn 'To a haggis'.

​

John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK

</PRE>

​

​

​

​

​

<!--endarticle-->

    <HR>

    <P><UL>

        <!--threads-->

    <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="000012.html">[SC-04-08] Nonsense

</A></li>

    <LI>Next message: <A HREF="000014.html">[SC-04-08] Nonsense

</A></li>

         <LI> <B>Messages sorted by:</B> 

              <a href="date.html#13">[ date ]</a>

              <a href="thread.html#13">[ thread ]</a>

              <a href="subject.html#13">[ subject ]</a>

              <a href="author.html#13">[ author ]</a>

         </LI>

       </UL>

​

<hr>

<a href="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">More information about the SC-04-08

mailing list</a><br>

​

​

​

   <TITLE> [SC-04-08] Nonsense

   </TITLE>

       pre {

           white-space: pre-wrap;       /* css-2.1, curent FF, Opera, Safari */

           }

   <H1>[SC-04-08] Nonsense</H1>

    <B>Mark Yonge</B> 

    <A HREF="mailto:sc-04-08%40standards.aes.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BSC-04-08%5D%20Nonsense&In-Reply-To=%3CCC101E8E-775C-4280-9792-33E814484BF4%40aes.org%3E" TITLE="[SC-04-08] Nonsense">standards at aes.org

       </A><BR>

    <I>Tue May 14 09:43:06 MDT 2013</I>

    <P><UL>

        <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="000013.html">[SC-04-08] Nonsense

</A></li>

        <LI>Next message: <A HREF="000017.html">[SC-04-08] Nonsense

</A></li>

         <LI> <B>Messages sorted by:</B> 

              <a href="date.html#14">[ date ]</a>

              <a href="thread.html#14">[ thread ]</a>

              <a href="subject.html#14">[ subject ]</a>

              <a href="author.html#14">[ author ]</a>

         </LI>

       </UL>

    <HR>  

<!--beginarticle-->

<PRE>Hi John,

​

This example is probably trivial, but the general principle is important, I think. The only time that AESSC has been sued was because of a misunderstanding based on unpublished draft information  that was leaked and used carelessly, and I have no intention of seeing this repeated. Keeping reflector traffic separate from other correspondence is a very simple way to maintain due-process hygiene. 

​

BSI uses other tools for handling correspondence and confidentiality, but the overall intent is much the same as you'll find in our, or any other, standards development organization. 

​

regards,

​

Mark

​

On 2013-05-14, at 16:15, John Woodgate wrote:

​

><i> In message <<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">935D13F4-36CD-4602-A829-938EA27E0BF5 at aes.org</A>>, dated Tue, 14 May 2013, Mark Yonge <<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">standards at aes.org</A>> writes:

</I>><i> 

</I>>><i> •      Please do not copy working-group correspondence to others. Send messages for the group to the email reflector only.

</I>><i> 

</I>><i> That isn't very sensible. All it does is force people to send the same message twice; once to the reflector and once to everyone else that the sender wishes to inform (probably also telling them he has sent the message to AESSC as well). I can't see that there is a real confidentiality issue.

</I>><i> 

</I>><i> Even the secret society known as BSI doesn't impose such a condition on its correspondents.

</I>><i> -- 

</I>><i> OOO - Own Opinions Only. See www.jmwa.demon.co.uk

</I>><i> They took me to a specialist burns unit - and made me learn 'To a haggis'.

</I>><i> 

</I>><i> John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK

</I>><i> _______________________________________________

</I>><i> SC-04-08 mailing list

</I>><i> <A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">SC-04-08 at standards.aes.org</A>

</I>><i> <<A HREF="http://standards.aes.org/sc.cfm?ID=91">http://standards.aes.org/sc.cfm?ID=91</A>>

</I>

</PRE>

​

​

​

​

​

​

<!--endarticle-->

    <HR>

    <P><UL>

        <!--threads-->

    <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="000013.html">[SC-04-08] Nonsense

</A></li>

    <LI>Next message: <A HREF="000017.html">[SC-04-08] Nonsense

</A></li>

         <LI> <B>Messages sorted by:</B> 

              <a href="date.html#14">[ date ]</a>

              <a href="thread.html#14">[ thread ]</a>

              <a href="subject.html#14">[ subject ]</a>

              <a href="author.html#14">[ author ]</a>

         </LI>

       </UL>

​

<hr>

<a href="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">More information about the SC-04-08

mailing list</a><br>

​

​

​

   <TITLE> [SC-04-08] Nonsense

   </TITLE>

       pre {

           white-space: pre-wrap;       /* css-2.1, curent FF, Opera, Safari */

           }

   <H1>[SC-04-08] Nonsense</H1>

    <B>philip newell</B> 

    <A HREF="mailto:sc-04-08%40standards.aes.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BSC-04-08%5D%20Nonsense&In-Reply-To=%3CCAEEhACmygHwtCrSvj51Vn_5kp0u8P_ScnXJrFShW3Pww0EqU9w%40mail.gmail.com%3E" TITLE="[SC-04-08] Nonsense">philiprnewell at gmail.com

       </A><BR>

    <I>Tue May 14 09:45:30 MDT 2013</I>

    <P><UL>

        <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="000017.html">[SC-04-08] Nonsense

</A></li>

        <LI>Next message: <A HREF="000019.html">[SC-04-08] Nonsense

</A></li>

         <LI> <B>Messages sorted by:</B> 

              <a href="date.html#15">[ date ]</a>

              <a href="thread.html#15">[ thread ]</a>

              <a href="subject.html#15">[ subject ]</a>

              <a href="author.html#15">[ author ]</a>

         </LI>

       </UL>

    <HR>  

<!--beginarticle-->

<PRE>Dear Mark,

​

                 Sorry about the error in protocol, but I am still not

familiar with the system.

​

                 My intention of writing (personally) to Tannoy was, as

stated, to ask how they came to their published conclusions, as I thought

that this information could be useful to the group, and help to explain how

the mis-applications are arising. It was discussed in Rome how any future

standard should seek to avoid misinterpretation by outlining clearly how,

when and why it should be applied.

​

                 So, the e-mail was not meant to be simply chat,but, as I

said, I am still not accustomed to how this process works. I was aware of

no risk of any breach of confidentiality. Nothing was going outside the

group.

​

                 Can you please explain to me, simply, how I can ask a

question to the group without breaking the rules? I was not aware of the

existence of a group reflector. Does it already exist?

​

​

​

Best wishes,

​

​

​

Philip

​

​

​

On 14 May 2013 16:57, Mark Yonge <<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">standards at aes.org</A>> wrote:

​

><i> Dear Philip,

</I>><i>

</I>><i> I understand the technical issues you mention in your note, but I have to

</I>><i> clarify a few procedural issues. This isn't aimed particularly at you,

</I>><i> however in a new AESSC group like SC-04-08, someone was certainly going to

</I>><i> write a note like this, and it happens that you're the first!

</I>><i>

</I>><i> Here goes:

</I>><i>

</I>><i> •       SC-04-08 is a standards working group with a defined scope working

</I>><i> on specific projects, each with a defined scope. It does not operate as an

</I>><i> open-ended chat group. Relevant information, proposed text, and technical

</I>><i> comment is always welcome; emotive commentary less so.

</I>><i>

</I>><i> •       Please do not copy working-group correspondence to others. Send

</I>><i> messages for the group to the email reflector only. If you feel that others

</I>><i> should be involved in the work of SC-04-08, please invite them to read the

</I>><i> information at <A HREF="http://www.aes.org/standards/development/membership.cfmand">http://www.aes.org/standards/development/membership.cfmand</A> fill in the on-line form as appropriate.

</I>><i>    Why?  As a member of an AES standards working group, you are bound by

</I>><i> our confidentiality rule; discussions and drafts within the working group

</I>><i> are held confidentially until such time as a document is formally published

</I>><i> following our due process. This is principally to avoid public confusion

</I>><i> with stories that may or may not have demonstrated the consensus necessary

</I>><i> for a published document. More (much more) at

</I>><i> <A HREF="http://www.aes.org/standards/development/rules.cfm.">http://www.aes.org/standards/development/rules.cfm.</A>

</I>><i>

</I>><i> •       You can see a list of the working group members when you log into

</I>><i> the AESSC members atrium using the login provided (should be the same as

</I>><i> your regular AES login) and click on the link to the working group. A

</I>><i> direct login is available at:

</I>><i> <A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/standards/sc.cfm?ID=91">https://secure.aes.org/standards/sc.cfm?ID=91</A>

</I>><i>

</I>><i> •       I fully understand why you find the information in that manual

</I>><i> objectionable. However please bear in mind that when you write to the

</I>><i> company, you are doing so on your own behalf and not as any kind of

</I>><i> representative of the AESSC or its working group.

</I>><i>

</I>><i> If you have any questions, on this or any other matter concerned with the

</I>><i> work of the AESSC, please call or Skype - I'm always happy to talk.

</I>><i>

</I>><i> best regards,

</I>><i>

</I>><i> Mark Yonge

</I>><i> AES Standards Manager

</I>><i> and Due-Process Referee

</I>><i>

</I>><i> tel: +44 1594 517200

</I>><i> skype: markyonge

</I>><i>

</I>><i> On 2013-05-14, at 14:53, philip newell wrote:

</I>><i>

</I>><i> > Dear All,

</I>><i> >

</I>><i> >            The confusion about the X-curve is now so great that I even

</I>><i> > found the following in the instruction manual for some Tannoy active

</I>><i> > monitors. More mis-information, I believe, about the X-curve. There is no

</I>><i> > way of stopping this nonsense now. The situation is rotten to the core.

</I>><i> The

</I>><i> > only solution seems to be the introduction of a totally new, clearly

</I>><i> > explained and technically justifiable calibration regime.

</I>><i> > Tannoy ACTIVE STUDIO MONITORS Owners Manual (Page 50 of

</I>><i> > 56)<

</I>><i> <A HREF="http://www.google.es/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=15&cad=rja&ved=0CD0QFjAEOAo&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.manualslib.com%2Fmanual%2F168283%2FTannoy-Active-Studio-Monitors.html%3Fpage%3D50&ei=qBs-UZTSIIuKhQeUioGgBg&usg=AFQjCNHTpALw-hamL-JAWNnD0ghVjII5Yw&sig2=bisO_mOG1AM_b2r7a4o8dA&bvm=bv.43287494,d.ZG4">http://www.google.es/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=15&cad=rja&ved=0CD0QFjAEOAo&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.manualslib.com%2Fmanual%2F168283%2FTannoy-Active-Studio-Monitors.html%3Fpage%3D50&ei=qBs-UZTSIIuKhQeUioGgBg&usg=AFQjCNHTpALw-hamL-JAWNnD0ghVjII5Yw&sig2=bisO_mOG1AM_b2r7a4o8dA&bvm=bv.43287494,d.ZG4</A>

</I>><i> >X

</I>><i> > – Curves Explained

</I>><i> > For small rooms, defined as less than 5300 cubic feet or 150 cubic

</I>><i> meters,

</I>><i> > ANSI/SMPTE 222M calls for a modification

</I>><i> > of the X-curve with flat natural response to 2kHz and then a 1.5dB per

</I>><i> > octave roll off above 2 kHz. *This curve is useful*

</I>><i> > * *

</I>><i> > *when mixing in a small room and playing back in a large room.*

</I>><i> > Another variation on the curve is to begin the high-end roll off at 4 kHz

</I>><i> > and roll off 3dB per octave instead of 1.5 per

</I>><i> > octave.

</I>><i> >

</I>><i> >

</I>><i> >             This is total rubbish!

</I>><i> >

</I>><i> >             Does anybody have any further comment before I write to

</I>><i> Tannoy

</I>><i> > to ask them where they got this information from?

</I>><i> >

</I>><i> >

</I>><i> >                                                                Best

</I>><i> wishes,

</I>><i> >

</I>><i> >

</I>><i> >

</I>><i> > Philip

</I>><i> > _______________________________________________

</I>><i> > SC-04-08 mailing list

</I>><i> > <A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">SC-04-08 at standards.aes.org</A>

</I>><i> > <<A HREF="http://standards.aes.org/sc.cfm?ID=91">http://standards.aes.org/sc.cfm?ID=91</A>>

</I>><i>

</I>><i> Mark Yonge

</I>><i> AES Standards Manager

</I>><i>

</I>><i> <A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">standards at aes.org</A>

</I>><i> tel: +44 1594 517200

</I>><i> skype: markyonge

</I>><i>

</I>><i>

</I>><i>

</I>><i>

</I>><i> _______________________________________________

</I>><i> SC-04-08 mailing list

</I>><i> <A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">SC-04-08 at standards.aes.org</A>

</I>><i> <<A HREF="http://standards.aes.org/sc.cfm?ID=91">http://standards.aes.org/sc.cfm?ID=91</A>>

</I>><i>

</I></PRE>

​

​

​

​

​

​

<!--endarticle-->

    <HR>

    <P><UL>

        <!--threads-->

    <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="000017.html">[SC-04-08] Nonsense

</A></li>

    <LI>Next message: <A HREF="000019.html">[SC-04-08] Nonsense

</A></li>

         <LI> <B>Messages sorted by:</B> 

              <a href="date.html#15">[ date ]</a>

              <a href="thread.html#15">[ thread ]</a>

              <a href="subject.html#15">[ subject ]</a>

              <a href="author.html#15">[ author ]</a>

         </LI>

       </UL>

​

<hr>

<a href="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">More information about the SC-04-08

mailing list</a><br>

​

​

​

   <TITLE> [SC-04-08] Nonsense

   </TITLE>

       pre {

           white-space: pre-wrap;       /* css-2.1, curent FF, Opera, Safari */

           }

   <H1>[SC-04-08] Nonsense</H1>

    <B>philip newell</B> 

    <A HREF="mailto:sc-04-08%40standards.aes.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BSC-04-08%5D%20Nonsense&In-Reply-To=%3CCAEEhACnnDpJGFXdvaCsNmpaAn20YQtZLLcHiuz7k4bNdg75g4Q%40mail.gmail.com%3E" TITLE="[SC-04-08] Nonsense">philiprnewell at gmail.com

       </A><BR>

    <I>Tue May 14 09:56:02 MDT 2013</I>

    <P><UL>

        <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="000011.html">[SC-04-08] Nonsense

</A></li>

        <LI>Next message: <A HREF="000012.html">[SC-04-08] Nonsense

</A></li>

         <LI> <B>Messages sorted by:</B> 

              <a href="date.html#16">[ date ]</a>

              <a href="thread.html#16">[ thread ]</a>

              <a href="subject.html#16">[ subject ]</a>

              <a href="author.html#16">[ author ]</a>

         </LI>

       </UL>

    <HR>  

<!--beginarticle-->

<PRE>Dear John,

​

                (I hope that I have the correct address, this time  -

these things confuse me! If it is not the right address, please tell me.)

​

                To answer your question, no, I don't think it would,

because the high frequency absorption varies with distance and relative

humidity, and so cannot be compensated for in any fixed manner.

​

                Anyhow, small, modern cinemas would only suffer, at worst,

about 3 dB of roll off* at 10 kHz*, and only, *around the rearmost seats*.

It would also suffer virtually no reverberant build-up at low frequencies,

so there is nothing to compensate for.

​

                At the back of a cinema room we *expect* to hear less top,

just as occurs naturally in a concert hall. What is more, if we

*did*compensate for the roll off at the

*rear* seats, we would be screaming into the ears of the people at the*front

* of the theatre. So, as the sound at the front is *already* *louder* than

at the rear, we would be doing more harm than good.

​

               Rolling off the direct sound above 2 kHz, in any room, has

no reasonable justification to support it.

​

​

​

Best wishes,

​

​

​

Philip

​

​

​

​

​

On 14 May 2013 16:23, John Woodgate <<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">jmw at jmwa.demon.co.uk</A>> wrote:

​

><i> In message <CAEEhACk=sVUgGJhf=nkqZJAs+**jQ6-_GgUSaWeY6nEV+8QRD6oQ@**

</I>><i> mail.gmail.com <nkqZJAs%2BjQ6-_GgUSaWeY6nEV%<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">2B8QRD6oQ at mail.gmail.com</A>>>,

</I>><i> dated Tue, 14 May 2013, philip newell <<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">philiprnewell at gmail.com</A>> writes:

</I>><i>

</I>><i>  X – Curves Explained

</I>>><i> For small rooms, defined as less than 5300 cubic feet or 150 cubic

</I>>><i> meters, ANSI/SMPTE 222M calls for a modification

</I>>><i> of the X-curve with flat natural response to 2kHz and then a 1.5dB per

</I>>><i> octave roll off above 2 kHz. This curve is useful

</I>>><i> when mixing in a small room and playing back in a large room.

</I>>><i> Another variation on the curve is to begin the high-end roll off at 4 kHz

</I>>><i> and roll off 3dB per octave instead of 1.5 per

</I>>><i> octave.

</I>>><i>

</I>>><i>

</I>>><i>              This is total rubbish!

</I>>><i>

</I>>><i>              Does anybody have any further comment before I write to

</I>>><i> Tannoy to ask them where they got this information from?

</I>>><i>

</I>><i>

</I>><i> You may be right, but is the Tannoy idea actually to compensate for

</I>><i> high-frequency attenuation with distance in the large room by

</I>><i> pre-emphasising those frequencies when mixing in the small room? I think a

</I>><i> case could be made for that, but I wouldn't bet on an acquittal!

</I>><i> --

</I>><i> OOO - Own Opinions Only. See www.jmwa.demon.co.uk

</I>><i> They took me to a specialist burns unit - and made me learn 'To a haggis'.

</I>><i>

</I>><i> John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK

</I>><i>

</I></PRE>

​

​

​

<!--endarticle-->

    <HR>

    <P><UL>

        <!--threads-->

    <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="000011.html">[SC-04-08] Nonsense

</A></li>

    <LI>Next message: <A HREF="000012.html">[SC-04-08] Nonsense

</A></li>

         <LI> <B>Messages sorted by:</B> 

              <a href="date.html#16">[ date ]</a>

              <a href="thread.html#16">[ thread ]</a>

              <a href="subject.html#16">[ subject ]</a>

              <a href="author.html#16">[ author ]</a>

         </LI>

       </UL>

​

<hr>

<a href="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">More information about the SC-04-08

mailing list</a><br>

​

​

​

   <TITLE> [SC-04-08] Nonsense

   </TITLE>