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Richard Cabot posted an update in the group SC-04-08 3 weeks ago

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<TITLE> [SC-04-08] SC-04-08-A </TITLE> pre { white-space: pre-wrap; /* css-2.1, curent FF, Opera, Safari */ } <H1>[SC-04-08] SC-04-08-A</H1> Glenn Leembruggen <A HREF="mailto:sc-04-08%40standards.aes.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BSC-04-08%5D%20SC-04-08-A&In-Reply-To=%3C007601d10ab3%24416b2660%24c4417320%24%40acousticdirections.com%3E" TITLE="[SC-04-08] SC-04-08-A">glenn at acousticdirections.com </A> Mon Oct 19 17:15:17 EDT 2015 <UL> <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="000307.html">[SC-04-08] Talker training </A></li> <LI>Next message: <A HREF="000309.html">[SC-04-08] SC-04-08-A </A></li> <LI> Messages sorted by: <a href="date.html#308">[ date ]</a> <a href="thread.html#308">[ thread ]</a> <a href="subject.html#308">[ subject ]</a> <a href="author.html#308">[ author ]</a> </LI> </UL> <HR>  <PRE>Hi David I am a member of SC-04-08 Are you able to invite me to the SC-04-08A committee. thanks very much Glenn --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. <A HREF="https://www.avast.com/antivirus">https://www.avast.com/antivirus</A> </PRE>  <HR> <UL>  <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="000307.html">[SC-04-08] Talker training </A></li> <LI>Next message: <A HREF="000309.html">[SC-04-08] SC-04-08-A </A></li> <LI> Messages sorted by: <a href="date.html#308">[ date ]</a> <a href="thread.html#308">[ thread ]</a> <a href="subject.html#308">[ subject ]</a> <a href="author.html#308">[ author ]</a> </LI> </UL> <hr> <a href="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">More information about the SC-04-08 mailing list</a> 

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<TITLE> [SC-04-08] Talker training </TITLE> pre { white-space: pre-wrap; /* css-2.1, curent FF, Opera, Safari */ } <H1>[SC-04-08] Talker training</H1> John Woodgate <A HREF="mailto:sc-04-08%40standards.aes.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BSC-04-08%5D%20Talker%20training&In-Reply-To=%3C03a201d10742%241e0c17c0%245a244740%24%40jmwa.demon.co.uk%3E" TITLE="[SC-04-08] Talker training">jmw at jmwa.demon.co.uk </A> Thu Oct 15 08:07:52 EDT 2015 <UL> <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="000306.html">[SC-04-08] Talker training </A></li> <LI>Next message: <A HREF="000308.html">[SC-04-08] SC-04-08-A </A></li> <LI> Messages sorted by: <a href="date.html#307">[ date ]</a> <a href="thread.html#307">[ thread ]</a> <a href="subject.html#307">[ subject ]</a> <a href="author.html#307">[ author ]</a> </LI> </UL> <HR>  <PRE>Sorry, copied from another message where attachments are allowed. I will upload the zip when I have overcome the chaos caused by the Windows 10 update. With best wishes. OOO - Own Opinions Only. www.jmwa.demon.co.uk J M Woodgate and Associates RAYLEIGH Essex England Please note my new email address <A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">jmw1937 at btinternet.com</A> > -----Original Message----- > From: SC-04-08 [mailto:<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">sc-04-08-bounces at standards.aes.org</A>] On Behalf Of John > Woodgate via SC-04-08 > Sent: 09 October 2015 13:57 > To: SC-04-08 <<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">sc-04-08 at standards.aes.org</A>> > Subject: [SC-04-08] Talker training > > I mentioned this at the Warsaw meeting. and there has been some progress. > We (a group of Brits, including Peter Mapp) will be approaching ISO TC159 > through the BSI mirror committee PH/9, to produce a standard. Support from > other countries through their ISO/TC159 mirror committees would be very > welcome. The attached ZIP includes further information. > > With best wishes. OOO - Own Opinions Only. www.jmwa.demon.co.uk > J M Woodgate and Associates RAYLEIGH Essex England > Please note my new email address <A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">jmw1937 at btinternet.com</A> > > _______________________________________________ > SC-04-08 mailing list > <A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">SC-04-08 at standards.aes.org</A> > <<A HREF="http://standards.aes.org/sc.cfm?ID=91">http://standards.aes.org/sc.cfm?ID=91</A>> </PRE>  <HR> <UL>  <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="000306.html">[SC-04-08] Talker training </A></li> <LI>Next message: <A HREF="000308.html">[SC-04-08] SC-04-08-A </A></li> <LI> Messages sorted by: <a href="date.html#307">[ date ]</a> <a href="thread.html#307">[ thread ]</a> <a href="subject.html#307">[ subject ]</a> <a href="author.html#307">[ author ]</a> </LI> </UL> <hr> <a href="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">More information about the SC-04-08 mailing list</a> 

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<TITLE> [SC-04-08] SC-04-08-A </TITLE> pre { white-space: pre-wrap; /* css-2.1, curent FF, Opera, Safari */ } <H1>[SC-04-08] SC-04-08-A</H1> david murphy <A HREF="mailto:sc-04-08%40standards.aes.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BSC-04-08%5D%20SC-04-08-A&In-Reply-To=%3CDC98EF6CF2F08F40AA5AA23B3509EDA98054D3598D%40KRIX-DC.Krix.local%3E" TITLE="[SC-04-08] SC-04-08-A">dmurphy at krix.com.au </A> Mon Oct 19 17:58:51 EDT 2015 <UL> <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="000308.html">[SC-04-08] SC-04-08-A </A></li> <LI>Next message: <A HREF="000312.html">[SC-04-08] SC-04-08-A </A></li> <LI> Messages sorted by: <a href="date.html#309">[ date ]</a> <a href="thread.html#309">[ thread ]</a> <a href="subject.html#309">[ subject ]</a> <a href="author.html#309">[ author ]</a> </LI> </UL> <HR>  <PRE>Hi Glenn, I thought that if you were a ' member' ie on the AES SC-04-08 mailing list you are able to attend meetings, no problem. And if you aren't on the mailing list then it is quite easy to apply on-line and ' register', as it were. Are you going to be at AES139 NY? I have just realised I am leaving for it next Wednesday!!! Anyway, the Chairs are Peter Mapp and Eddy Bogh Brixen, and an email to either of them I am sure would result in appositive response ie come along! Peter Mapp <<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">peter at petermapp.com</A>> Eddy B. Brixen <<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">ebb at ebb-consult.com</A>> Cheers David PS I must talk to you about FFT processing. I have a set of MLSSA results from my end-fire array and don't get the frequency responses I expected! I have imported their text files into Excel, and manually time aligned the maxima, normalised them to the maximum of the furthest array member, summed and averaged them, and then attempted an FFT using Excel - quite a pain if I may say so! There is probably an elegant way to do this in MatLab, but I don't have the skills I fear. -----Original Message----- From: SC-04-08 [mailto:<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">sc-04-08-bounces at standards.aes.org</A>] On Behalf Of Glenn Leembruggen via SC-04-08 Sent: Tuesday, 20 October 2015 7:45 AM To: 'Working group on Measurement and equalization of sound systems in rooms' <<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">sc-04-08 at standards.aes.org</A>> Subject: Re: [SC-04-08] SC-04-08-A Hi David I am a member of SC-04-08 Are you able to invite me to the SC-04-08A committee. thanks very much Glenn --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. <A HREF="http://cp.mcafee.com/d/2DRPoQrhoovjud7bb2pKVJ6UVcQsKfLTudET79CzBNZOXVJ6UVcQsKfLTd79J6UVBcQsLFK9CQ5mUH4OMaaNA7YLSJCOIp1_bZHpLhO3XWrz_nV55UsOCzRXBQSjhOZOqrz329EVWybWRQRrEIYG7DR8OJMddECQPt-jsohd7bWr3a9KVIDeqR4IMFSCtFfBYS4V6phrErFoLtwLtUKgGT2TQ1l9X13oEkXvFM04SMCY-r1vF6y0QJz0AnKMnKYqnjh0c2huX1uXNsgdFLCMzws">http://cp.mcafee.com/d/2DRPoQrhoovjud7bb2pKVJ6UVcQsKfLTudET79CzBNZOXVJ6UVcQsKfLTd79J6UVBcQsLFK9CQ5mUH4OMaaNA7YLSJCOIp1_bZHpLhO3XWrz_nV55UsOCzRXBQSjhOZOqrz329EVWybWRQRrEIYG7DR8OJMddECQPt-jsohd7bWr3a9KVIDeqR4IMFSCtFfBYS4V6phrErFoLtwLtUKgGT2TQ1l9X13oEkXvFM04SMCY-r1vF6y0QJz0AnKMnKYqnjh0c2huX1uXNsgdFLCMzws</A> _______________________________________________ SC-04-08 mailing list <A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">SC-04-08 at standards.aes.org</A> <<A HREF="http://cp.mcafee.com/d/FZsS838wd39J5xxZdUQsII9CXCQrzAPhOU-_tUSzssCqen7TbLCQrzAPhOU-_sQsCQrzCkPhO-CUCrglryIjb0EH6gvO_qSraNA7YLSJCZ78fLFKfZvAknxPaqfnKnjpd7bT9FKcc8CzDG8LHnjlKyPOEuvkzaT0QSCrjdTVdNx4QsLFIcECXCM0t9X13oEkXvFM07amWPGF8d3zzhOyrFoLtwLtUKgGT2TQ1l9X13oEkXvFM04SMCY-r1vF6y0QJz0AnKMnKYqnjh0c2huX1uXNsgdFLCVAJMdFa_XkjW">http://cp.mcafee.com/d/FZsS838wd39J5xxZdUQsII9CXCQrzAPhOU-_tUSzssCqen7TbLCQrzAPhOU-_sQsCQrzCkPhO-CUCrglryIjb0EH6gvO_qSraNA7YLSJCZ78fLFKfZvAknxPaqfnKnjpd7bT9FKcc8CzDG8LHnjlKyPOEuvkzaT0QSCrjdTVdNx4QsLFIcECXCM0t9X13oEkXvFM07amWPGF8d3zzhOyrFoLtwLtUKgGT2TQ1l9X13oEkXvFM04SMCY-r1vF6y0QJz0AnKMnKYqnjh0c2huX1uXNsgdFLCVAJMdFa_XkjW</A>> </PRE>  <HR> <UL>  <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="000308.html">[SC-04-08] SC-04-08-A </A></li> <LI>Next message: <A HREF="000312.html">[SC-04-08] SC-04-08-A </A></li> <LI> Messages sorted by: <a href="date.html#309">[ date ]</a> <a href="thread.html#309">[ thread ]</a> <a href="subject.html#309">[ subject ]</a> <a href="author.html#309">[ author ]</a> </LI> </UL> <hr> <a href="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">More information about the SC-04-08 mailing list</a> 

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<TITLE> [SC-04-08] SC-04-08-A </TITLE> pre { white-space: pre-wrap; /* css-2.1, curent FF, Opera, Safari */ } <H1>[SC-04-08] SC-04-08-A</H1> Peter Mapp <A HREF="mailto:sc-04-08%40standards.aes.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BSC-04-08%5D%20SC-04-08-A&In-Reply-To=%3C08ff15021fc34e63b1f4b8be5f1c70c0%40MBX22.CloudPlatform1.com%3E" TITLE="[SC-04-08] SC-04-08-A">peter at petermapp.com </A> Mon Oct 19 18:08:02 EDT 2015 <UL> <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="000312.html">[SC-04-08] SC-04-08-A </A></li> <LI>Next message: <A HREF="000311.html">[SC-04-08] SC-04-08-A </A></li> <LI> Messages sorted by: <a href="date.html#310">[ date ]</a> <a href="thread.html#310">[ thread ]</a> <a href="subject.html#310">[ subject ]</a> <a href="author.html#310">[ author ]</a> </LI> </UL> <HR>  <PRE>Probably - but I certainly can Peter Mapp Vice Chair SC-04 -----Original Message----- From: SC-04-08 [mailto:<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">sc-04-08-bounces at standards.aes.org</A>] On Behalf Of Glenn Leembruggen via SC-04-08 Sent: 19 October 2015 22:15 To: 'Working group on Measurement and equalization of sound systems in rooms' Subject: Re: [SC-04-08] SC-04-08-A Hi David I am a member of SC-04-08 Are you able to invite me to the SC-04-08A committee. thanks very much Glenn --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. <A HREF="https://www.avast.com/antivirus">https://www.avast.com/antivirus</A> _______________________________________________ SC-04-08 mailing list <A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">SC-04-08 at standards.aes.org</A> <<A HREF="http://standards.aes.org/sc.cfm?ID=91">http://standards.aes.org/sc.cfm?ID=91</A>> </PRE>  <HR> <UL>  <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="000312.html">[SC-04-08] SC-04-08-A </A></li> <LI>Next message: <A HREF="000311.html">[SC-04-08] SC-04-08-A </A></li> <LI> Messages sorted by: <a href="date.html#310">[ date ]</a> <a href="thread.html#310">[ thread ]</a> <a href="subject.html#310">[ subject ]</a> <a href="author.html#310">[ author ]</a> </LI> </UL> <hr> <a href="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">More information about the SC-04-08 mailing list</a> 

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<TITLE> [SC-04-08] SC-04-08-A </TITLE> pre { white-space: pre-wrap; /* css-2.1, curent FF, Opera, Safari */ } <H1>[SC-04-08] SC-04-08-A</H1> David Josephson <A HREF="mailto:sc-04-08%40standards.aes.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BSC-04-08%5D%20SC-04-08-A&In-Reply-To=%3C56256D37.1040604%40josephson.com%3E" TITLE="[SC-04-08] SC-04-08-A">dlj at josephson.com </A> Mon Oct 19 18:22:47 EDT 2015 <UL> <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="000310.html">[SC-04-08] SC-04-08-A </A></li> <LI>Next message: <A HREF="000313.html">[SC-04-08] FW: SC 04 08A </A></li> <LI> Messages sorted by: <a href="date.html#311">[ date ]</a> <a href="thread.html#311">[ thread ]</a> <a href="subject.html#311">[ subject ]</a> <a href="author.html#311">[ author ]</a> </LI> </UL> <HR>  <PRE>I have asked Mark to add Glenn, Kurt and Neil to SC-04-08A per their requests. </PRE>  <HR> <UL>  <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="000310.html">[SC-04-08] SC-04-08-A </A></li> <LI>Next message: <A HREF="000313.html">[SC-04-08] FW: SC 04 08A </A></li> <LI> Messages sorted by: <a href="date.html#311">[ date ]</a> <a href="thread.html#311">[ thread ]</a> <a href="subject.html#311">[ subject ]</a> <a href="author.html#311">[ author ]</a> </LI> </UL> <hr> <a href="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">More information about the SC-04-08 mailing list</a> 

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<TITLE> [SC-04-08] SC-04-08-A </TITLE> pre { white-space: pre-wrap; /* css-2.1, curent FF, Opera, Safari */ } <H1>[SC-04-08] SC-04-08-A</H1> Thomas Lagö <A HREF="mailto:sc-04-08%40standards.aes.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BSC-04-08%5D%20SC-04-08-A&In-Reply-To=%3C84F07F4E-437C-463C-A1DD-BAA37AAA0860%40gmail.com%3E" TITLE="[SC-04-08] SC-04-08-A">thomaslagoqirra at gmail.com </A> Tue Oct 20 03:07:45 EDT 2015 <UL> <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="000309.html">[SC-04-08] SC-04-08-A </A></li> <LI>Next message: <A HREF="000310.html">[SC-04-08] SC-04-08-A </A></li> <LI> Messages sorted by: <a href="date.html#312">[ date ]</a> <a href="thread.html#312">[ thread ]</a> <a href="subject.html#312">[ subject ]</a> <a href="author.html#312">[ author ]</a> </LI> </UL> <HR>  <PRE>David, Let me know if you need help and support in regards to FFT processing. This is my specialty and I have multiple m-files in MATLAB for this purpose. I have also published many articles on FFT Signal Processing to avoid amplitude errors. Best regards, Dr. Thomas L. Lagö Chief Scientist & Chairman Cell Sweden: +46 708 357337 Cell USA: +1 479 571 0035 QirraSound Technologies Europe AB Main office: Landsnoravägen 77A, 19251 Sollentuna, Sweden Visiting address: Kista Science City, SenseGraphics AB, Borgarfjordsgatan 6B, Kista, Sweden R&D and Technology Center: Slagetorp 2, 57692 Sävsjö, Sweden Manufacturing unit: QirraSound/VILAX, Tirupsvägen 9, 24593 Staffanstorp, Sweden <A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">thomas.lago at qirrasound.com</A> <mailto:<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">thomas.lago at qirrasound.com</A>> www.qirrasound.se <<A HREF="http://www.qirrasound.se/">http://www.qirrasound.se/</A>> thomaslago.com <<A HREF="http://thomaslago.com/">http://thomaslago.com/</A>> This email message, including any attachments, is for the sole use of the intended recipient (s) and may contain information that is confidential, proprietary, legally privileged, or otherwise protected by law from disclosure. Any unauthorized review, use, copying, disclosure, or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, or the person responsible for delivering this to an addressee, you should notify the sender immediately by telephone or by reply e-mail, and destroy all copies of the original message. > On 19 Oct 2015, at 23:58, david murphy via SC-04-08 <<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">sc-04-08 at standards.aes.org</A>> wrote: > > Hi Glenn, > I thought that if you were a ' member' ie on the AES SC-04-08 mailing list you are able to attend meetings, no problem. And if you aren't on the mailing list then it is quite easy to apply on-line and ' register', as it were. > Are you going to be at AES139 NY? I have just realised I am leaving for it next Wednesday!!! > Anyway, the Chairs are Peter Mapp and Eddy Bogh Brixen, and an email to either of them I am sure would result in appositive response ie come along! > Peter Mapp <<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">peter at petermapp.com</A>> > Eddy B. Brixen <<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">ebb at ebb-consult.com</A>> > > Cheers > David > > PS I must talk to you about FFT processing. I have a set of MLSSA results from my end-fire array and don't get the frequency responses I expected! > I have imported their text files into Excel, and manually time aligned the maxima, normalised them to the maximum of the furthest array member, summed and averaged them, and then attempted an FFT using Excel - quite a pain if I may say so! > There is probably an elegant way to do this in MatLab, but I don't have the skills I fear. > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: SC-04-08 [mailto:<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">sc-04-08-bounces at standards.aes.org</A>] On Behalf Of Glenn Leembruggen via SC-04-08 > Sent: Tuesday, 20 October 2015 7:45 AM > To: 'Working group on Measurement and equalization of sound systems in rooms' <<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">sc-04-08 at standards.aes.org</A>> > Subject: Re: [SC-04-08] SC-04-08-A > > Hi David > I am a member of SC-04-08 > Are you able to invite me to the SC-04-08A committee. > thanks very much > Glenn > > > --- > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > <A HREF="http://cp.mcafee.com/d/2DRPoQrhoovjud7bb2pKVJ6UVcQsKfLTudET79CzBNZOXVJ6UVcQsKfLTd79J6UVBcQsLFK9CQ5mUH4OMaaNA7YLSJCOIp1_bZHpLhO3XWrz_nV55UsOCzRXBQSjhOZOqrz329EVWybWRQRrEIYG7DR8OJMddECQPt-jsohd7bWr3a9KVIDeqR4IMFSCtFfBYS4V6phrErFoLtwLtUKgGT2TQ1l9X13oEkXvFM04SMCY-r1vF6y0QJz0AnKMnKYqnjh0c2huX1uXNsgdFLCMzws">http://cp.mcafee.com/d/2DRPoQrhoovjud7bb2pKVJ6UVcQsKfLTudET79CzBNZOXVJ6UVcQsKfLTd79J6UVBcQsLFK9CQ5mUH4OMaaNA7YLSJCOIp1_bZHpLhO3XWrz_nV55UsOCzRXBQSjhOZOqrz329EVWybWRQRrEIYG7DR8OJMddECQPt-jsohd7bWr3a9KVIDeqR4IMFSCtFfBYS4V6phrErFoLtwLtUKgGT2TQ1l9X13oEkXvFM04SMCY-r1vF6y0QJz0AnKMnKYqnjh0c2huX1uXNsgdFLCMzws</A> > > _______________________________________________ > SC-04-08 mailing list > <A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">SC-04-08 at standards.aes.org</A> > <<A HREF="http://cp.mcafee.com/d/FZsS838wd39J5xxZdUQsII9CXCQrzAPhOU-_tUSzssCqen7TbLCQrzAPhOU-_sQsCQrzCkPhO-CUCrglryIjb0EH6gvO_qSraNA7YLSJCZ78fLFKfZvAknxPaqfnKnjpd7bT9FKcc8CzDG8LHnjlKyPOEuvkzaT0QSCrjdTVdNx4QsLFIcECXCM0t9X13oEkXvFM07amWPGF8d3zzhOyrFoLtwLtUKgGT2TQ1l9X13oEkXvFM04SMCY-r1vF6y0QJz0AnKMnKYqnjh0c2huX1uXNsgdFLCVAJMdFa_XkjW">http://cp.mcafee.com/d/FZsS838wd39J5xxZdUQsII9CXCQrzAPhOU-_tUSzssCqen7TbLCQrzAPhOU-_sQsCQrzCkPhO-CUCrglryIjb0EH6gvO_qSraNA7YLSJCZ78fLFKfZvAknxPaqfnKnjpd7bT9FKcc8CzDG8LHnjlKyPOEuvkzaT0QSCrjdTVdNx4QsLFIcECXCM0t9X13oEkXvFM07amWPGF8d3zzhOyrFoLtwLtUKgGT2TQ1l9X13oEkXvFM04SMCY-r1vF6y0QJz0AnKMnKYqnjh0c2huX1uXNsgdFLCVAJMdFa_XkjW</A>> > _______________________________________________ > SC-04-08 mailing list > <A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">SC-04-08 at standards.aes.org</A> > <<A HREF="http://standards.aes.org/sc.cfm?ID=91">http://standards.aes.org/sc.cfm?ID=91</A>> > </PRE>  <HR> <UL>  <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="000309.html">[SC-04-08] SC-04-08-A </A></li> <LI>Next message: <A HREF="000310.html">[SC-04-08] SC-04-08-A </A></li> <LI> Messages sorted by: <a href="date.html#312">[ date ]</a> <a href="thread.html#312">[ thread ]</a> <a href="subject.html#312">[ subject ]</a> <a href="author.html#312">[ author ]</a> </LI> </UL> <hr> <a href="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">More information about the SC-04-08 mailing list</a> 

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<TITLE> [SC-04-08] FW: SC 04 08A </TITLE> pre { white-space: pre-wrap; /* css-2.1, curent FF, Opera, Safari */ } <H1>[SC-04-08] FW: SC 04 08A</H1> David Josephson <A HREF="mailto:sc-04-08%40standards.aes.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BSC-04-08%5D%20FW%3A%20SC%2004%2008A&In-Reply-To=%3C5629340B.5050505%40josephson.com%3E" TITLE="[SC-04-08] FW: SC 04 08A">dlj at josephson.com </A> Thu Oct 22 15:07:55 EDT 2015 <UL> <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="000311.html">[SC-04-08] SC-04-08-A </A></li> <LI>Next message: <A HREF="000314.html">[SC-04-08] GoToMeeting Invitation - aes139_SC-04-08-meeting </A></li> <LI> Messages sorted by: <a href="date.html#313">[ date ]</a> <a href="thread.html#313">[ thread ]</a> <a href="subject.html#313">[ subject ]</a> <a href="author.html#313">[ author ]</a> </LI> </UL> <HR>  <PRE>Hi Joules, I have taken the liberty of copying your email to the SC-04-08 reflector, hope that's okay. There must have been some alarmed traffic on a SMPTE group in the past few days. Four people asked to join the SC-04-08A task group, all of whom were, like you, already members of SC-04-08, and at least one of whom apparently didn't recall that he was already a member of SC-04-08A. It's great that people might be participating after nearly three years on this topic, but there has been very little discussion on the actual work of this task group. There can be no "glaring omissions and errors" because there is not even a draft of a standard to have anything omitted from it or erroneously included. Mr. McCarty circulated a document last year purporting to be a draft standard from AESSC, but in fact there was no involvement of the Standards Committee in writing it. Please make that clear to anyone who mentions his document. AESSC is not involved in preparation of standards about hearing safety and it is unlikely that we would take on that work. X-227 is entirely about perceived loudness of a sound track with respect to its digital full scale level, separate from the establishment of reference sound pressure level to which a soundtrack might be indexed. Other projects are underway in SC-04-08 on calibration but frankly there does not seem to be critical mass of people to do the substantial actual work required to derive a consensus on best methods for these important tasks, nor is there funding to pay for the substantial legal and logistical support to assure that we proceed in a prudent direction. I have summarized these issues in an email to Philip Newell yesterday, which he indicated he will share with the SMPTE group. I can assure you that no standard will be published without due process in accordance with AESSC rules and the absence of technically valid sustained objection. The work on X227 proceeds under the leadership of Eelco Grimm, with involvement from Florian Camerer, who together did much of the work toward the broadcast loudness standards. Once again these are on the topic of loudness of a sound track file irrespective of its playback level in a room. I hope there will be some progress to report at the New York meetings of SC-04-08 and SC-04-08A. We welcome your participation. Regards David Josephson Chair, SC-04 > Hi David. > > Regarding the SC 04 08A work. > > I suppose you've been "inundated" with the rest of the folks from the SMPYE group in the last day or so. > > Prior to this I was discussing with Francis Rumsey about joining this group. > > I'm still in the dark as to whatever happened with Mr McCarty and this group, but I had little involvement in such matters previously. > > Where I stand at the moment is that I had great experience with practical in-the-field application of the EU workplace noise regulations in Music entertainment venues. > I believe I may have been a little "critical" of some of the work by the group up to now, but I simply didn't want to see a good chance to do something fall at the first hurdle because of glaring omissions and errors. I feel that many legislators would be looking to tear our work to pieces in order to keep their status quo. > > I was solely responsible for the implementation of compliance practices for about 400 UK music entertainment venues between 2005 and 2009, which included actual system design and tuning along with countless meetings and evidence gathering for the representatives of the local authorities. > > I am interested in the progress so far but have commented many times that the current position is weak in the case of having adequate evidence that there is actually any infringement of legal limits. I also have concern that nobody is doing any work to document whether cinema is actually any louder than any similar entertainment and nobody is questioning if intervention id justified based on actual (non fantasy) evidence of audience exposure. > We really ned to do a lot of homework before going out on a limb and suggesting any control measures. > > I belive that this needs to be done quickly, the longer we procrastinate the more the badly implemenmted badly researched regulations like those in Belgium will creep into use and if we are not careful we will end up with a useless draconian law that serves nobody based solely on the fact that nobody challenged the precident. > > I take the real true protection of people's hearing VERY seriously, but in my experience the implementation of control measures is generally a shambles. > > I hope that you will allow me to join the SC 04 08A group as I would like to contribute what I have learned up to now for the benefit of the industry. > > Sadly I can't make the NY conference because of pressing work commitments, I really wish I could do. > > > Thanks > > Joules. > > > Below, was the lead from Francis. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Francis Rumsey [mailto:<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">francis.rumsey at aes.org</A>] > Sent: 19 October 2015 15:50 > To: Joules Newell <<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">joules at newellacousticengineering.com</A>> > Cc: Bob Schulein <<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">schulein at ameritech.net</A>> > Subject: Re: AES New York > > > > Joules, I’m not closely involved with Standards, but as far as I understand it, the standards group SC-04-08 looking at that issue has struggled to find leadership since I understand that Ben Kok, who initially took on the job, resigned. David Josephson, as chair of SC-04, has been working to try to rekindle the activity, and it is not dead, so David would be the best person to discuss this with. David Josephson <<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">dlj at josephson.com</A>> > > regards > Francis > </PRE>  <HR> <UL>  <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="000311.html">[SC-04-08] SC-04-08-A </A></li> <LI>Next message: <A HREF="000314.html">[SC-04-08] GoToMeeting Invitation - aes139_SC-04-08-meeting </A></li> <LI> Messages sorted by: <a href="date.html#313">[ date ]</a> <a href="thread.html#313">[ thread ]</a> <a href="subject.html#313">[ subject ]</a> <a href="author.html#313">[ author ]</a> </LI> </UL> <hr> <a href="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">More information about the SC-04-08 mailing list</a> 

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<TITLE> [SC-04-08] GoToMeeting Invitation - aes139_SC-04-08-meeting </TITLE> pre { white-space: pre-wrap; /* css-2.1, curent FF, Opera, Safari */ } <H1>[SC-04-08] GoToMeeting Invitation - aes139_SC-04-08-meeting</H1> AES Standards <A HREF="mailto:sc-04-08%40standards.aes.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BSC-04-08%5D%20GoToMeeting%20Invitation%20-%20aes139_SC-04-08-meeting&In-Reply-To=%3C0C705322-08E2-4323-B50C-F93660EAA059%40aes.org%3E" TITLE="[SC-04-08] GoToMeeting Invitation - aes139_SC-04-08-meeting">standards at aes.org </A> Sat Oct 31 09:04:35 EDT 2015 <UL> <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="000313.html">[SC-04-08] FW: SC 04 08A </A></li> <LI>Next message: <A HREF="000315.html">[SC-04-08] GoToMeeting Invitation - aes139_SC-04-08-meeting </A></li> <LI> Messages sorted by: <a href="date.html#314">[ date ]</a> <a href="thread.html#314">[ thread ]</a> <a href="subject.html#314">[ subject ]</a> <a href="author.html#314">[ author ]</a> </LI> </UL> <HR>  <PRE>Dear SC-04-08, Please find below the call-in information for the meeting at 16:00 EDT later today. Note that final decisions are not made in these meetings. Any proposals made during this meeting must be accepted by the working group as a whole based on the meeting’s output report, or a specific email call for comment. To save stressing the VoIP echo-cancellation algorithms (which sounds horrible), please consider using a headset even if you need to use the microphone in your laptop. Please also keep your microphone muted unless you need to speak. You should be aware that the meeting room here at the Jacob Javits Center in NY is very reverberant. There's nothing we can do to change this and so we ask for your understanding. Regards, Mark Yonge AES Standards Manager <A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">standards at aes.org1.</A> Please join my meeting, 31 Oct 2015 at 16:00 GMT-4. <A HREF="https://global.gotomeeting.com/join/523247733">https://global.gotomeeting.com/join/523247733</A> 2. Use your microphone and speakers (VoIP) - a headset is recommended. Or, call in using your telephone. United Kingdom: +44 (0) 330 221 0099 Australia: +61 2 8355 1039 Austria: +43 7 2088 2172 Belgium: +32 (0) 42 68 0180 Canada: +1 (647) 497-9379 Denmark: +45 89 88 05 39 Finland: +358 (0) 931 58 4588 France: +33 (0) 170 950 589 Germany: +49 (0) 692 5736 7301 Ireland: +353 (0) 15 360 757 Italy: +39 0 294 75 15 37 Netherlands: +31 (0) 108 080 116 New Zealand: +64 9 801 0294 Norway: +47 21 51 81 86 Spain: +34 911 23 4248 Sweden: +46 (0) 852 500 516 Switzerland: +41 (0) 435 0824 41 United States: +1 (224) 501-3318 Access Code: 523-247-733 Audio PIN: Shown after joining the meeting Meeting ID: 523-247-733 GoToMeeting® Online Meetings Made Easy® Not at your computer? Click the link to join this meeting from your iPhone®, iPad®, Android® or Windows Phone® device via the GoToMeeting app. Mark Yonge AES Standards Manager <A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">standards at aes.org</A> </PRE>  <HR> <UL>  <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="000313.html">[SC-04-08] FW: SC 04 08A </A></li> <LI>Next message: <A HREF="000315.html">[SC-04-08] GoToMeeting Invitation - aes139_SC-04-08-meeting </A></li> <LI> Messages sorted by: <a href="date.html#314">[ date ]</a> <a href="thread.html#314">[ thread ]</a> <a href="subject.html#314">[ subject ]</a> <a href="author.html#314">[ author ]</a> </LI> </UL> <hr> <a href="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">More information about the SC-04-08 mailing list</a> 

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<TITLE> [SC-04-08] GoToMeeting Invitation - aes139_SC-04-08-meeting </TITLE> pre { white-space: pre-wrap; /* css-2.1, curent FF, Opera, Safari */ } <H1>[SC-04-08] GoToMeeting Invitation - aes139_SC-04-08-meeting</H1> Thomas Lagö <A HREF="mailto:sc-04-08%40standards.aes.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BSC-04-08%5D%20GoToMeeting%20Invitation%20-%20aes139_SC-04-08-meeting&In-Reply-To=%3C18F89C43-21FB-4587-99B1-CFBC0FA071BD%40gmail.com%3E" TITLE="[SC-04-08] GoToMeeting Invitation - aes139_SC-04-08-meeting">thomaswowwe at gmail.com </A> Sat Oct 31 11:03:43 EDT 2015 <UL> <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="000314.html">[SC-04-08] GoToMeeting Invitation - aes139_SC-04-08-meeting </A></li> <LI>Next message: <A HREF="000316.html">[SC-04-08] GoToMeeting Invitation - aes139_SC-04-08-meeting </A></li> <LI> Messages sorted by: <a href="date.html#315">[ date ]</a> <a href="thread.html#315">[ thread ]</a> <a href="subject.html#315">[ subject ]</a> <a href="author.html#315">[ author ]</a> </LI> </UL> <HR>  <PRE>I am trying to login but only get some “marketing pages —“buy this” How do I get to the meeting? Dr Thomas Lagö > On 31 Oct 2015, at 14:04, AES Standards via SC-04-08 <<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">sc-04-08 at standards.aes.org</A>> wrote: > > Dear SC-04-08, > > Please find below the call-in information for the meeting at 16:00 EDT later today. > > Note that final decisions are not made in these meetings. Any proposals made during this meeting must be accepted by the working group as a whole based on the meeting’s output report, or a specific email call for comment. > > To save stressing the VoIP echo-cancellation algorithms (which sounds horrible), please consider using a headset even if you need to use the microphone in your laptop. Please also keep your microphone muted unless you need to speak. > > You should be aware that the meeting room here at the Jacob Javits Center in NY is very reverberant. There's nothing we can do to change this and so we ask for your understanding. > > Regards, > > Mark Yonge > AES Standards Manager > <A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">standards at aes.org1.</A> Please join my meeting, 31 Oct 2015 at 16:00 GMT-4. > <A HREF="https://global.gotomeeting.com/join/523247733">https://global.gotomeeting.com/join/523247733</A> > > 2. Use your microphone and speakers (VoIP) - a headset is recommended. Or, call in using your telephone. > > United Kingdom: +44 (0) 330 221 0099 > Australia: +61 2 8355 1039 > Austria: +43 7 2088 2172 > Belgium: +32 (0) 42 68 0180 > Canada: +1 (647) 497-9379 > Denmark: +45 89 88 05 39 > Finland: +358 (0) 931 58 4588 > France: +33 (0) 170 950 589 > Germany: +49 (0) 692 5736 7301 > Ireland: +353 (0) 15 360 757 > Italy: +39 0 294 75 15 37 > Netherlands: +31 (0) 108 080 116 > New Zealand: +64 9 801 0294 > Norway: +47 21 51 81 86 > Spain: +34 911 23 4248 > Sweden: +46 (0) 852 500 516 > Switzerland: +41 (0) 435 0824 41 > United States: +1 (224) 501-3318 > > Access Code: 523-247-733 > Audio PIN: Shown after joining the meeting > > Meeting ID: 523-247-733 > > GoToMeeting® > Online Meetings Made Easy® > > Not at your computer? Click the link to join this meeting from your iPhone®, iPad®, Android® or Windows Phone® device via the GoToMeeting app. > > Mark Yonge > AES Standards Manager > <A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">standards at aes.org</A> > > > > _______________________________________________ > SC-04-08 mailing list > <A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">SC-04-08 at standards.aes.org</A> > <<A HREF="http://standards.aes.org/sc.cfm?ID=91">http://standards.aes.org/sc.cfm?ID=91</A>> </PRE>  <HR> <UL>  <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="000314.html">[SC-04-08] GoToMeeting Invitation - aes139_SC-04-08-meeting </A></li> <LI>Next message: <A HREF="000316.html">[SC-04-08] GoToMeeting Invitation - aes139_SC-04-08-meeting </A></li> <LI> Messages sorted by: <a href="date.html#315">[ date ]</a> <a href="thread.html#315">[ thread ]</a> <a href="subject.html#315">[ subject ]</a> <a href="author.html#315">[ author ]</a> </LI> </UL> <hr> <a href="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">More information about the SC-04-08 mailing list</a> 

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<TITLE> [SC-04-08] GoToMeeting Invitation - aes139_SC-04-08-meeting </TITLE> pre { white-space: pre-wrap; /* css-2.1, curent FF, Opera, Safari */ } <H1>[SC-04-08] GoToMeeting Invitation - aes139_SC-04-08-meeting</H1> Thomas Lagö <A HREF="mailto:sc-04-08%40standards.aes.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BSC-04-08%5D%20GoToMeeting%20Invitation%20-%20aes139_SC-04-08-meeting&In-Reply-To=%3CDBAFBD3E-CCC9-47C3-99A5-7A2ADF9BFAB2%40gmail.com%3E" TITLE="[SC-04-08] GoToMeeting Invitation - aes139_SC-04-08-meeting">thomaswowwe at gmail.com </A> Sat Oct 31 11:06:20 EDT 2015 <UL> <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="000315.html">[SC-04-08] GoToMeeting Invitation - aes139_SC-04-08-meeting </A></li> <LI>Next message: <A HREF="000317.html">[SC-04-08] GoToMeeting Invitation - aes139_SC-04-08-meeting </A></li> <LI> Messages sorted by: <a href="date.html#316">[ date ]</a> <a href="thread.html#316">[ thread ]</a> <a href="subject.html#316">[ subject ]</a> <a href="author.html#316">[ author ]</a> </LI> </UL> <HR>  <PRE>I am trying to login but only get some “marketing pages —“buy this” How do I get to the meeting? Dr Thomas Lagö > On 31 Oct 2015, at 14:04, AES Standards via SC-04-08 <<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">sc-04-08 at standards.aes.org</A>> wrote: > > Dear SC-04-08, > > Please find below the call-in information for the meeting at 16:00 EDT later today. > > Note that final decisions are not made in these meetings. Any proposals made during this meeting must be accepted by the working group as a whole based on the meeting’s output report, or a specific email call for comment. > > To save stressing the VoIP echo-cancellation algorithms (which sounds horrible), please consider using a headset even if you need to use the microphone in your laptop. Please also keep your microphone muted unless you need to speak. > > You should be aware that the meeting room here at the Jacob Javits Center in NY is very reverberant. There's nothing we can do to change this and so we ask for your understanding. > > Regards, > > Mark Yonge > AES Standards Manager > <A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">standards at aes.org1.</A> Please join my meeting, 31 Oct 2015 at 16:00 GMT-4. > <A HREF="https://global.gotomeeting.com/join/523247733">https://global.gotomeeting.com/join/523247733</A> > > 2. Use your microphone and speakers (VoIP) - a headset is recommended. Or, call in using your telephone. > > United Kingdom: +44 (0) 330 221 0099 > Australia: +61 2 8355 1039 > Austria: +43 7 2088 2172 > Belgium: +32 (0) 42 68 0180 > Canada: +1 (647) 497-9379 > Denmark: +45 89 88 05 39 > Finland: +358 (0) 931 58 4588 > France: +33 (0) 170 950 589 > Germany: +49 (0) 692 5736 7301 > Ireland: +353 (0) 15 360 757 > Italy: +39 0 294 75 15 37 > Netherlands: +31 (0) 108 080 116 > New Zealand: +64 9 801 0294 > Norway: +47 21 51 81 86 > Spain: +34 911 23 4248 > Sweden: +46 (0) 852 500 516 > Switzerland: +41 (0) 435 0824 41 > United States: +1 (224) 501-3318 > > Access Code: 523-247-733 > Audio PIN: Shown after joining the meeting > > Meeting ID: 523-247-733 > > GoToMeeting® > Online Meetings Made Easy® > > Not at your computer? Click the link to join this meeting from your iPhone®, iPad®, Android® or Windows Phone® device via the GoToMeeting app. > > Mark Yonge > AES Standards Manager > <A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">standards at aes.org</A> > > > > _______________________________________________ > SC-04-08 mailing list > <A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">SC-04-08 at standards.aes.org</A> > <<A HREF="http://standards.aes.org/sc.cfm?ID=91">http://standards.aes.org/sc.cfm?ID=91</A>> </PRE>  <HR> <UL>  <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="000315.html">[SC-04-08] GoToMeeting Invitation - aes139_SC-04-08-meeting </A></li> <LI>Next message: <A HREF="000317.html">[SC-04-08] GoToMeeting Invitation - aes139_SC-04-08-meeting </A></li> <LI> Messages sorted by: <a href="date.html#316">[ date ]</a> <a href="thread.html#316">[ thread ]</a> <a href="subject.html#316">[ subject ]</a> <a href="author.html#316">[ author ]</a> </LI> </UL> <hr> <a href="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">More information about the SC-04-08 mailing list</a> 

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<TITLE> [SC-04-08] - Warsaw </TITLE> pre { white-space: pre-wrap; /* css-2.1, curent FF, Opera, Safari */ } <H1>[SC-04-08] - Warsaw</H1> philip newell <A HREF="mailto:sc-04-08%40standards.aes.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BSC-04-08%5D%20-%20Warsaw&In-Reply-To=%3CCAEEhACnetMpy%3D_ObAQL2S-j3ieUAs3BF%3D9aB5rS1DX4peG6kSA%40mail.gmail.com%3E" TITLE="[SC-04-08] - Warsaw">philiprnewell at gmail.com </A> Tue Apr 28 04:33:39 EDT 2015 <UL> <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="000296.html">[SC-04-08] - Warsaw </A></li> <LI>Next message: <A HREF="000298.html">[SC-04-08] Liaison report: AES-X215 on SMPTE Modern Calibration document </A></li> <LI> Messages sorted by: <a href="date.html#297">[ date ]</a> <a href="thread.html#297">[ thread ]</a> <a href="subject.html#297">[ subject ]</a> <a href="author.html#297">[ author ]</a> </LI> </UL> <HR>  <PRE>Dear Brian, Much of it is new territory for the mixers as well. Some of the expectations of what can be done are perhaps not realistic. Best wishes, Philip On 28 April 2015 at 05:07, Brian McCarty <<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">bmccarty at coralseastudios.com</A>> wrote: > Well that’s a bummer. But thanks for thinking of me anyway, Philip. > > You heard yesterday the level of acoustical knowledge that’s now > inhabiting the immersive group. Roger Dressler is a terrific ally, but I > wonder why no one from Dolby proffers an opinion. Maybe they don’t know, > either? > > Brian > > > > On 27 Apr 2015, at 6:31 pm, philip newell <<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">philiprnewell at gmail.com</A>> > wrote: > > > > Quite incredibly, I cannot get from Vigo (Spain) to Warsaw and back (on > the > > 6th and 11th) within single days of travelling there and back. It can > only > > be done with an overnight stay, en route, in one direction and 14 hours > of > > travelling in the other direction with a need to get to an airport by > 4.30 > > am. It is all out of the question. > > > > > > Best wishes, > > > > > > > > Philip > > > > > > > > On 27 April 2015 at 06:42, david murphy <<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">dmurphy at krix.com.au</A>> wrote: > > > >> Hi all, > >> I will not be in Warsaw, but intend to be at AES NY. > >> I hope you have a productive meeting. > >> warm regards from Down Under > >> David > >> > >> David Murphy > >> Loudspeaker Design Engineer > >> Commercial Cinema > >> > >> Krix > >> 14 Chapman Road | Hackham SA 5163 | Australia > >> T +618 83843433 | F +618 83843419 > >> Email: <A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">dmurphy at krix.com</A> | Web: www.krix.com > >> > >> > >> > >> DISCLAIMER: > >> This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential to the > >> intended recipient and may be privileged. If you are not the intended > >> recipient, please notify Krix immediately. Whilst we have used software > to > >> alert us to the presence of computer viruses, we cannot guarantee that > this > >> email and any files transmitted with it are free from them. > >> ________________________________________ > >> From: SC-04-08 [<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">sc-04-08-bounces at standards.aes.org</A>] On Behalf Of Eddy > B. > >> Brixen [<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">ebb at ebb-consult.com</A>] > >> Sent: Wednesday, 22 April 2015 12:47 AM > >> To: 'Working group on Measurement and equalization of sound systems > >> in rooms' > >> Subject: Re: [SC-04-08] - Warsaw > >> > >> Hi Brian, > >> I'll chair the meeting in Warsaw. > >> Cheers > >> Eddy > >> > >> Eddy B. Brixen > >> consultant > >> > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: SC-04-08 [mailto:<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">sc-04-08-bounces at standards.aes.org</A>] On Behalf Of > >> Brian McCarty > >> Sent: 21. april 2015 15:25 > >> To: Bruce Olson; <A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">sc-04-08 at standards.aes.org</A> > >> Cc: Andres Mayo; Francis Rumsey > >> Subject: [SC-04-08] - Warsaw > >> > >> There has no agenda been posted for SC-04-08 in Warsaw. > >> > >> Has a new chair been named? > >> Who’s managing the meeting in Warsaw? > >> > >> > >> Brian McCarty > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> SC-04-08 mailing list > >> <A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">SC-04-08 at standards.aes.org</A> > >> < > >> > <A HREF="http://cp.mcafee.com/d/FZsS739J5xcQsK9CzBxNUTsSzssCqen7TXL6QrzAPhOU-VtYSzssCqen7TXCzASzssOCqenQT4Pq2Hslypo55oO3-nXmPpmcw_B-RISqektsspvvW_9Icf8CzDHTbFIEFY-MyOUZR4nRHFGThpVkffGhBrwqrhdFCXYyUqenAkmkXL6XCM0t9X13oEkXvFM07amWPGF8d3zzhOyrFoLtwLtUKgGT2TQ1l9X13oEkXvFM04SOMMyr1vF6y0QJz0AnKMnKYqnjh0nd402X6CC3qr9KSLZyXsL">http://cp.mcafee.com/d/FZsS739J5xcQsK9CzBxNUTsSzssCqen7TXL6QrzAPhOU-VtYSzssCqen7TXCzASzssOCqenQT4Pq2Hslypo55oO3-nXmPpmcw_B-RISqektsspvvW_9Icf8CzDHTbFIEFY-MyOUZR4nRHFGThpVkffGhBrwqrhdFCXYyUqenAkmkXL6XCM0t9X13oEkXvFM07amWPGF8d3zzhOyrFoLtwLtUKgGT2TQ1l9X13oEkXvFM04SOMMyr1vF6y0QJz0AnKMnKYqnjh0nd402X6CC3qr9KSLZyXsL</A> > >>> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> SC-04-08 mailing list > >> <A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">SC-04-08 at standards.aes.org</A> > >> < > >> > <A HREF="http://cp.mcafee.com/d/2DRPoQ86Qm4PhOUCqem77ztPqdNOpEVsvvKYrhKejd7bzXBTPqdNOpEVsvvKqejqdNPapEVvjsjdEaJNm9Bwklz8fVvJrdBoO3-nXmPpEVhRNNBZ_HYCMMYyqeuLsKCOyDPX2bbzTkhvmKCHt5DBgY-F6lK1FJcSCrLObxEVuhhpjKYrKr01QDI4dyxjJ-D00sFrHeGAwQeed7a9KByZS2ZTyV2Hsbvg5kDI4dyxjJ-D00jrb329I5-Aq83iSc2huX1uXNFtd41sQg0bIqqodFICRcggLw7b">http://cp.mcafee.com/d/2DRPoQ86Qm4PhOUCqem77ztPqdNOpEVsvvKYrhKejd7bzXBTPqdNOpEVsvvKqejqdNPapEVvjsjdEaJNm9Bwklz8fVvJrdBoO3-nXmPpEVhRNNBZ_HYCMMYyqeuLsKCOyDPX2bbzTkhvmKCHt5DBgY-F6lK1FJcSCrLObxEVuhhpjKYrKr01QDI4dyxjJ-D00sFrHeGAwQeed7a9KByZS2ZTyV2Hsbvg5kDI4dyxjJ-D00jrb329I5-Aq83iSc2huX1uXNFtd41sQg0bIqqodFICRcggLw7b</A> > >>> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> SC-04-08 mailing list > >> <A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">SC-04-08 at standards.aes.org</A> > >> <<A HREF="http://standards.aes.org/sc.cfm?ID=91">http://standards.aes.org/sc.cfm?ID=91</A>> > >> > > _______________________________________________ > > SC-04-08 mailing list > > <A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">SC-04-08 at standards.aes.org</A> > > <<A HREF="http://standards.aes.org/sc.cfm?ID=91">http://standards.aes.org/sc.cfm?ID=91</A>> > > _______________________________________________ > SC-04-08 mailing list > <A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">SC-04-08 at standards.aes.org</A> > <<A HREF="http://standards.aes.org/sc.cfm?ID=91">http://standards.aes.org/sc.cfm?ID=91</A>> > </PRE>  <HR> <UL>  <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="000296.html">[SC-04-08] - Warsaw </A></li> <LI>Next message: <A HREF="000298.html">[SC-04-08] Liaison report: AES-X215 on SMPTE Modern Calibration document </A></li> <LI> Messages sorted by: <a href="date.html#297">[ date ]</a> <a href="thread.html#297">[ thread ]</a> <a href="subject.html...

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<TITLE> [SC-04-08] Liaison report: AES-X215 on SMPTE Modern Calibration document </TITLE> pre { white-space: pre-wrap; /* css-2.1, curent FF, Opera, Safari */ } <H1>[SC-04-08] Liaison report: AES-X215 on SMPTE Modern Calibration document</H1> AES Standards <A HREF="mailto:sc-04-08%40standards.aes.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BSC-04-08%5D%20Liaison%20report%3A%20AES-X215%20on%20SMPTE%20Modern%20Calibration%0A%09document&In-Reply-To=%3C5665B0A1-7EAB-4871-9715-6D38D0ECDD26%40aes.org%3E" TITLE="[SC-04-08] Liaison report: AES-X215 on SMPTE Modern Calibration document">standards at aes.org </A> Fri May 1 12:15:35 EDT 2015 <UL> <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="000297.html">[SC-04-08] - Warsaw </A></li> <LI>Next message: <A HREF="000299.html">[SC-04-08] Liaison report: AES-X215 on SMPTE Modern Calibration document </A></li> <LI> Messages sorted by: <a href="date.html#298">[ date ]</a> <a href="thread.html#298">[ thread ]</a> <a href="subject.html#298">[ subject ]</a> <a href="author.html#298">[ author ]</a> </LI> </UL> <HR>  <PRE>Dear SC-04-08, PS: Because AES email reflectors do not support attachments, SC-04-08 members can find the attached documents on the secure document site at: <A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/standards/documents/?ID=91">https://secure.aes.org/standards/documents/?ID=91</A> x215-150430-AES-comments-to-SMPTE.pdf SMPTE-Modern-Calibration-RP-AES-commented 2015-04-17.docx > To: Alan Lambshead <<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">alan.lambshead at icloud.com</A>>, <A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">alambshead at smpte.org</A>, <A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">liaisons at lists.smpte.org</A> > Dear Alan, > > Please find attached our liaison report for project AES-X215 on SMPTE Modern Calibration document. > > Sincerely, > > > Mark Yonge > AES Standards Manager > > <A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">standards at aes.org</A> > tel: +44 1594 517200 > skype: markyonge > </PRE>  <HR> <UL>  <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="000297.html">[SC-04-08] - Warsaw </A></li> <LI>Next message: <A HREF="000299.html">[SC-04-08] Liaison report: AES-X215 on SMPTE Modern Calibration document </A></li> <LI> Messages sorted by: <a href="date.html#298">[ date ]</a> <a href="thread.html#298">[ thread ]</a> <a href="subject.html#298">[ subject ]</a> <a href="author.html#298">[ author ]</a> </LI> </UL> <hr> <a href="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">More information about the SC-04-08 mailing list</a> 

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<TITLE> [SC-04-08] Liaison report: AES-X215 on SMPTE Modern Calibration document </TITLE> pre { white-space: pre-wrap; /* css-2.1, curent FF, Opera, Safari */ } <H1>[SC-04-08] Liaison report: AES-X215 on SMPTE Modern Calibration document</H1> Brian McCarty <A HREF="mailto:sc-04-08%40standards.aes.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BSC-04-08%5D%20Liaison%20report%3A%20AES-X215%20on%20SMPTE%20Modern%20Calibration%0A%09document&In-Reply-To=%3CE827D61F-7E6F-4FAE-A7FF-A7DF699BFB3C%40coralseastudios.com%3E" TITLE="[SC-04-08] Liaison report: AES-X215 on SMPTE Modern Calibration document">bmccarty at coralseastudios.com </A> Fri May 1 13:25:28 EDT 2015 <UL> <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="000298.html">[SC-04-08] Liaison report: AES-X215 on SMPTE Modern Calibration document </A></li> <LI>Next message: <A HREF="000300.html">[SC-04-08] GoToMeeting Invitation - AES138 Warsaw working group SC-04-08 </A></li> <LI> Messages sorted by: <a href="date.html#299">[ date ]</a> <a href="thread.html#299">[ thread ]</a> <a href="subject.html#299">[ subject ]</a> <a href="author.html#299">[ author ]</a> </LI> </UL> <HR>  <PRE>SC-04-08, I would suggest that it’s difficult for us to have any impact on the documents being developed at the SMPTE when our response isn’t timely. The original formal liaison request from the SMPTE asked for a response on this (x215) and the Standardized Pink Noise document drafts (x216) by November 1, 2014. A number of members produced detailed responses to these two documents in a timely way, as well as vigorous comments on the SC-04-08 reflector - which were expected by the members to be collated and sent to the SMPTE in a timely way in order to benefit both societies and enhance our abilities to work together. The x216 response was sent to the SMPTE on January 20, 2015 - after the SMPTE set the document down for ballot. Now we’ve been sent from the Secretariat (after numerous attempts by me to have the formal response generated) the AES comments on x215 on May 1, 2015 - fully six months after the requested response. This is unacceptable to me as a member of these groups, and chair of the TC-SDCTV which initiated this work. This has failed the AES members and brought us into disrepute in this collaboration. I am profoundly disappointed in this action by the AES Standards management, and the Society has been profoundly embarrassed by the failure to produce this information in a timely way. Brian McCarty > On 1 May 2015, at 7:15 pm, AES Standards <<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">standards at aes.org</A> <mailto:<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">standards at aes.org</A>>> wrote: > > Dear SC-04-08, > > PS: Because AES email reflectors do not support attachments, SC-04-08 members can find the attached documents on the secure document site at: > <A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/standards/documents/?ID=91">https://secure.aes.org/standards/documents/?ID=91</A> <<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/standards/documents/?ID=91">https://secure.aes.org/standards/documents/?ID=91</A>> > > x215-150430-AES-comments-to-SMPTE.pdf > SMPTE-Modern-Calibration-RP-AES-commented 2015-04-17.docx > >> To: Alan Lambshead <<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">alan.lambshead at icloud.com</A> <mailto:<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">alan.lambshead at icloud.com</A>>>, <A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">alambshead at smpte.org</A> <mailto:<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">alambshead at smpte.org</A>>, <A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">liaisons at lists.smpte.org</A> <mailto:<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">liaisons at lists.smpte.org</A>> > >> Dear Alan, >> >> Please find attached our liaison report for project AES-X215 on SMPTE Modern Calibration document. >> >> Sincerely, >> >> >> Mark Yonge >> AES Standards Manager >> >> <A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">standards at aes.org</A> <mailto:<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">standards at aes.org</A>> >> tel: +44 1594 517200 >> skype: markyonge >> > > > _______________________________________________ > SC-04-08 mailing list > <A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">SC-04-08 at standards.aes.org</A> <mailto:<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">SC-04-08 at standards.aes.org</A>> > <<A HREF="http://standards.aes.org/sc.cfm?ID=91">http://standards.aes.org/sc.cfm?ID=91</A>> </PRE>  <HR> <UL>  <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="000298.html">[SC-04-08] Liaison report: AES-X215 on SMPTE Modern Calibration document </A></li> <LI>Next message: <A HREF="000300.html">[SC-04-08] GoToMeeting Invitation - AES138 Warsaw working group SC-04-08 </A></li> <LI> Messages sorted by: <a href="date.html#299">[ date ]</a> <a href="thread.html#299">[ thread ]</a> <a href="subject.html#299">[ subject ]</a> <a href="author.html#299">[ author ]</a> </LI> </UL> <hr> <a href="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">More information about the SC-04-08 mailing list</a> 

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<TITLE> [SC-04-08] GoToMeeting Invitation - AES138 Warsaw working group SC-04-08 </TITLE> pre { white-space: pre-wrap; /* css-2.1, curent FF, Opera, Safari */ } <H1>[SC-04-08] GoToMeeting Invitation - AES138 Warsaw working group SC-04-08</H1> AES Standards <A HREF="mailto:sc-04-08%40standards.aes.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BSC-04-08%5D%20GoToMeeting%20Invitation%20-%20AES138%20Warsaw%20working%20group%0A%09SC-04-08&In-Reply-To=%3C1BC80EBA-C379-4AD7-B8E3-0E38B54F1A20%40aes.org%3E" TITLE="[SC-04-08] GoToMeeting Invitation - AES138 Warsaw working group SC-04-08">standards at aes.org </A> Thu May 7 07:23:51 EDT 2015 <UL> <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="000299.html">[SC-04-08] Liaison report: AES-X215 on SMPTE Modern Calibration document </A></li> <LI>Next message: <A HREF="000301.html">[SC-04-08] Report AES 138 </A></li> <LI> Messages sorted by: <a href="date.html#300">[ date ]</a> <a href="thread.html#300">[ thread ]</a> <a href="subject.html#300">[ subject ]</a> <a href="author.html#300">[ author ]</a> </LI> </UL> <HR>  <PRE>Dear SC-04-08, Please find below the GoToMeeting call-in information for the SC-04-08 meeting in Warsaw on Saturday, 9 May. Note that final decisions are not made in these meetings. Any proposals made during this meeting must be accepted by the working group as a whole based on the meeting’s output report, or a specific email call for comment. To save stressing the VoIP echo-cancellation algorithms (which sounds horrible), please consider using a headset even if you need to use the microphone in your laptop. Please also keep your microphone muted unless you need to speak. regards, Mark Yonge AES Standards Manager 1. Please join my meeting, 9 May 2015 at 16:00 CEST. <A HREF="https://global.gotomeeting.com/join/339852637">https://global.gotomeeting.com/join/339852637</A> 2. Use your microphone and speakers (VoIP) - a headset is recommended. Or, call in using your telephone. United Kingdom: +44 (0) 330 221 0086 Austria: +43 (0) 7 2088 1403 Belgium: +32 (0) 28 93 7019 Canada: +1 (647) 497-9351 Denmark: +45 (0) 69 91 88 64 Finland: +358 (0) 942 41 5780 France: +33 (0) 182 880 459 Germany: +49 (0) 692 5736 7210 Ireland: +353 (0) 14 845 978 Italy: +39 0 553 98 95 67 Netherlands: +31 (0) 208 080 381 New Zealand: +64 (0) 4 974 7214 Norway: +47 21 03 58 98 Spain: +34 931 81 6669 Sweden: +46 (0) 853 527 836 Switzerland: +41 (0) 435 0167 09 United States: +1 (224) 501-3217 Access Code: 339-852-637 Audio PIN: Shown after joining the meeting Meeting ID: 339-852-637 GoToMeeting® Online Meetings Made Easy® Not at your computer? Click the link to join this meeting from your iPhone®, iPad®, Android® or Windows Phone® device via the GoToMeeting app. Mark Yonge AES Standards Manager <A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">standards at aes.org</A> </PRE>  <HR> <UL>  <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="000299.html">[SC-04-08] Liaison report: AES-X215 on SMPTE Modern Calibration document </A></li> <LI>Next message: <A HREF="000301.html">[SC-04-08] Report AES 138 </A></li> <LI> Messages sorted by: <a href="date.html#300">[ date ]</a> <a href="thread.html#300">[ thread ]</a> <a href="subject.html#300">[ subject ]</a> <a href="author.html#300">[ author ]</a> </LI> </UL> <hr> <a href="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">More information about the SC-04-08 mailing list</a> 

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<TITLE> [SC-04-08] Report AES 138 </TITLE> pre { white-space: pre-wrap; /* css-2.1, curent FF, Opera, Safari */ } <H1>[SC-04-08] Report AES 138</H1> Eddy B. Brixen <A HREF="mailto:sc-04-08%40standards.aes.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BSC-04-08%5D%20Report%20AES%20138&In-Reply-To=%3C002101d10214%24d81fa8d0%24885efa70%24%40ebb-consult.com%3E" TITLE="[SC-04-08] Report AES 138">ebb at ebb-consult.com </A> Thu Oct 8 18:01:11 EDT 2015 <UL> <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="000300.html">[SC-04-08] GoToMeeting Invitation - AES138 Warsaw working group SC-04-08 </A></li> <LI>Next message: <A HREF="000302.html">[SC-04-08] Report AES 138 </A></li> <LI> Messages sorted by: <a href="date.html#301">[ date ]</a> <a href="thread.html#301">[ thread ]</a> <a href="subject.html#301">[ subject ]</a> <a href="author.html#301">[ author ]</a> </LI> </UL> <HR>  <PRE>Dear WG of SC-04-08, Please find below the report of May 2015 meeting Br, Eddy B. Brixen SC-04-08 meeting report, Warsaw, May 2015. The meeting was convened by interim chair Eddy B. Brixen. The secretary presented the formal notice on patent policy. The Agenda and report of the previous meeting, held in Los Angeles, CA, USA 2014-10-10, were accepted as written. Development Projects AES-X215 - "Liaison with SMPTE project to codify current procedures to calibrate the cinema B-chain." Since the last meeting, the AES comments have been reported to the SMPTE. This report fulfills the task and the project is now closed. AES-X216 - "Liaison with SMPTE project on Calibration Pink-Noise Standard and Test File." Since the last meeting, the AES comments have been reported to the SMPTE. This report fulfills the task and the project is now closed. AES-X218 - "Measurement and calibration of sound systems in rooms." The main topic of the meeting was this project. One inspiration for this project is, of course, the SMPTE document. However, as this solely apply to digital cinema sound systems; it will not completely cover the needs of the AES-project, as X218 should be relevant also in connection with rooms that are more complex and complex systems. The implication of amplified microphones is one issue. Number of microphone positions or measurement points The standard deviation more or less defines the number of measurement points. Brian Vessa mentioned that his upcoming report regarding cinema check (to be finished by September 2015) suggested five positions. This procedure is not for the calibration of new installations, just for the verification of existing ones. Further, it primarily deals with rooms having only one seating area. For venues having more than a primary seating area, for instance, rooms with balconies, this has to be evaluated separately. Cengale and Mateos from Dolby presented a paper in 2014. The title is "Effect of microphone number and positioning on the average of frequency responses in cinema calibration" (AES Preprint 9083). This paper concludes that there is no reason for more than 8 microphone positions within a single area. In rooms with less homogenous sound distribution it is not possible just to average eight microphones, as some may happen to be positioned in poorly covered spots. Each point should be evaluated separately. Averaging data is throwing data away. Bad systems may require more microphone positions. However, more measurements does not make the speaker system perform better. To avoid an unrealistic high number of positions, rooms should be classified so the expectations more or less define how detailed measurements that should be performed. Among the members of the group, the implementation of 8-9 microphone positions seem to be common and scaling up for larger rooms. Thomas Lago: Taking the coherence into account gives the possibility of knowing whether the measurement relates to the speaker measured. The accepted coherence can be defined in relation to the quality of the measurement. However, in rooms like concert halls for classic music the coherence may become low due to reverberation. If basing measurements on coherence the limits must be defined depending on room type. The group shortly touched on measurement techniques for mapping measurement results, including the involvement of wireless techniques. What kind of measurement microphone should apply? Diffuse field / free field / Head and Torso? If the coherence is low it doesn't matter what kind of microphone or is chosen. On the other hand, HATS provide a result closer to the perceived sound although they are expensive and time consuming to move around. Less expensive ear-simulators should be available but still, implementation is not a feasible solution at this point. In a near future it should be considered to apply microphone arrays for 3D measurements as it is already implemented for concert hall measurements. Object based audio also apply ceiling speakers, thus a 3D presentation of the sound field can be of interest. However, so far we are aiming for the simple solution utilizing single point pressure microphones. No final conclusion was made regarding the number of microphone positions. However, all group members were requested to forward ideas on best practice based on their daily work. Measurement signal It should be possible to synchronize the measurement system to the signal. This excludes the old method of just applying a pink noise generator and do the measurement with a RTA. Therefore, the final methodology should build on impulse response by applying MLS or the like. Front-end microphones / acoustic feedback The basic purpose of many PA/SR systems is to provide amplification to microphone signals. Too much amplification produces unwanted acoustic feedback. Do we need to develop a method to measure SPL before feedback in order to document the threshold of instability? The NT ACOU 108 has a method that provides data on this. In the discussion, it was mentioned that it should be possible to document this basic system. However, there are many parameters to define like microphone position, microphone directivity and so on. No conclusion was made on this topic. The group should look up papers related to acoustic feedback problems. Speech Intelligibility On this, we rely completely on IEC 60268-16 (Speech Transmission Index). The measurements are carried out in exactly the same microphone positions as applied for other measures. Maximum SPL It should be possible to document the maximum SPL of a system. In some cases like in the calibrated cinema, the required level is given. In other systems is must be defined by some kind of non-destructive procedure. We need to define for how long time this max SPL should be present. Similar considerations exist on the component side. The AES2 standard actually goes into this. The problem is to define short term / long term (Long term = lifetime?). We will learn from the AES2 revision to define common terms if possible. Acoustical noise It is important to measure the emitted acoustic noise from the system (hiss from speakers, ENF-components, fans, etc.). It was suggested to document this by measuring spectra. One measurement of the noise spectrum with the system on and one or two measurements with the system off; two measurements, for worst and best case scenario regarding room settings of ventilation, light and so on. Distortion Distortion is very difficult to measure. Often the rattling of mechanical elements in the room are heard before the distortion. If considering the coherence measurement it is avoided to perform distortion measurements. If the system distorts the coherence simply is reduced. Actually, this is a topic for further study. We should encourage universities to let students study this for their thesis. Presenting data We should recommend standard forms for the reporting of measured results. It should not be mandatory; however, in most cases it would ensure full and sufficient information for a report. The SMPTE standard will include a number of forms. We will get inspired from this when published. Liaisons There were no new liaison issues. New Projects Bob Lee and Jan Abildgaard have mentioned a project: Amplifier sizing for passive loudspeakers. It is not yet an official project but we can expect this to end up in SC-04-08. John Woodgate asked for a test method for rating human speakers with regard to achieved speech intelligibility. No method exists - but needed. New Business None Next meeting October NY, NY. </PRE>  <HR> <UL>  <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="000300.html">[SC-04-08] GoToMeeting Invitation - AES138 Warsaw working group SC-04-08 </A></li> <LI>Next message: <A HREF="000302.html">[SC-04-08] Report AES 138 </A></li> <LI> Messages sorted by: <a href="date.html#301">[ date ]</a> <a href="thread.html#301">[ thread ]</a> <a href="subject.html#301">[ subject ]</a> <a href="author.html#301">[ author ]</a> </LI> </UL> <hr> <a href="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">More information ...

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<TITLE> [SC-04-08] Report AES 138 </TITLE> pre { white-space: pre-wrap; /* css-2.1, curent FF, Opera, Safari */ } <H1>[SC-04-08] Report AES 138</H1> Peter Mapp <A HREF="mailto:sc-04-08%40standards.aes.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BSC-04-08%5D%20Report%20AES%20138&In-Reply-To=%3CA225B70D-34F5-46A2-9AB6-D7A4AA1ED118%40petermapp.com%3E" TITLE="[SC-04-08] Report AES 138">peter at petermapp.com </A> Fri Oct 9 03:00:09 EDT 2015 <UL> <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="000301.html">[SC-04-08] Report AES 138 </A></li> <LI>Next message: <A HREF="000303.html">[SC-04-08] Report AES 138 </A></li> <LI> Messages sorted by: <a href="date.html#302">[ date ]</a> <a href="thread.html#302">[ thread ]</a> <a href="subject.html#302">[ subject ]</a> <a href="author.html#302">[ author ]</a> </LI> </UL> <HR>  <PRE>Hi Eddy Thanks for excellent report. Looks like some good progress was made in Warsaw. I look forward to the meeting in New York. Best regards Peter Sent from my iPad > On 8 Oct 2015, at 23:04, Eddy B. Brixen via SC-04-08 <<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">sc-04-08 at standards.aes.org</A>> wrote: > > Dear WG of SC-04-08, > Please find below the report of May 2015 meeting > Br, Eddy B. Brixen > > SC-04-08 meeting report, Warsaw, May 2015. > > The meeting was convened by interim chair Eddy B. Brixen. > > The secretary presented the formal notice on patent policy. > > The Agenda and report of the previous meeting, held in Los Angeles, CA, USA > 2014-10-10, were accepted as written. > > Development Projects > AES-X215 - "Liaison with SMPTE project to codify current procedures to > calibrate the cinema B-chain." > Since the last meeting, the AES comments have been reported to the SMPTE. > This report fulfills the task and the project is now closed. > > AES-X216 - "Liaison with SMPTE project on Calibration Pink-Noise Standard > and Test File." > Since the last meeting, the AES comments have been reported to the SMPTE. > This report fulfills the task and the project is now closed. > > AES-X218 - "Measurement and calibration of sound systems in rooms." > The main topic of the meeting was this project. > > One inspiration for this project is, of course, the SMPTE document. However, > as this solely apply to digital cinema sound systems; it will not completely > cover the needs of the AES-project, as X218 should be relevant also in > connection with rooms that are more complex and complex systems. The > implication of amplified microphones is one issue. > > Number of microphone positions or measurement points > The standard deviation more or less defines the number of measurement > points. Brian Vessa mentioned that his upcoming report regarding cinema > check (to be finished by September 2015) suggested five positions. This > procedure is not for the calibration of new installations, just for the > verification of existing ones. Further, it primarily deals with rooms having > only one seating area. For venues having more than a primary seating area, > for instance, rooms with balconies, this has to be evaluated separately. > > Cengale and Mateos from Dolby presented a paper in 2014. The title is > "Effect of microphone number and positioning on the average of frequency > responses in cinema calibration" (AES Preprint 9083). This paper concludes > that there is no reason for more than 8 microphone positions within a single > area. > > In rooms with less homogenous sound distribution it is not possible just to > average eight microphones, as some may happen to be positioned in poorly > covered spots. Each point should be evaluated separately. Averaging data is > throwing data away. Bad systems may require more microphone positions. > However, more measurements does not make the speaker system perform better. > To avoid an unrealistic high number of positions, rooms should be classified > so the expectations more or less define how detailed measurements that > should be performed. > > Among the members of the group, the implementation of 8-9 microphone > positions seem to be common and scaling up for larger rooms. > > Thomas Lago: Taking the coherence into account gives the possibility of > knowing whether the measurement relates to the speaker measured. The > accepted coherence can be defined in relation to the quality of the > measurement. However, in rooms like concert halls for classic music the > coherence may become low due to reverberation. If basing measurements on > coherence the limits must be defined depending on room type. > > The group shortly touched on measurement techniques for mapping measurement > results, including the involvement of wireless techniques. > > What kind of measurement microphone should apply? Diffuse field / free field > / Head and Torso? If the coherence is low it doesn't matter what kind of > microphone or is chosen. On the other hand, HATS provide a result closer to > the perceived sound although they are expensive and time consuming to move > around. Less expensive ear-simulators should be available but still, > implementation is not a feasible solution at this point. In a near future it > should be considered to apply microphone arrays for 3D measurements as it is > already implemented for concert hall measurements. Object based audio also > apply ceiling speakers, thus a 3D presentation of the sound field can be of > interest. However, so far we are aiming for the simple solution utilizing > single point pressure microphones. > > No final conclusion was made regarding the number of microphone positions. > However, all group members were requested to forward ideas on best practice > based on their daily work. > > Measurement signal > It should be possible to synchronize the measurement system to the signal. > This excludes the old method of just applying a pink noise generator and do > the measurement with a RTA. Therefore, the final methodology should build on > impulse response by applying MLS or the like. > > Front-end microphones / acoustic feedback > The basic purpose of many PA/SR systems is to provide amplification to > microphone signals. Too much amplification produces unwanted acoustic > feedback. Do we need to develop a method to measure SPL before feedback in > order to document the threshold of instability? The NT ACOU 108 has a method > that provides data on this. In the discussion, it was mentioned that it > should be possible to document this basic system. However, there are many > parameters to define like microphone position, microphone directivity and so > on. No conclusion was made on this topic. The group should look up papers > related to acoustic feedback problems. > > Speech Intelligibility > On this, we rely completely on IEC 60268-16 (Speech Transmission Index). The > measurements are carried out in exactly the same microphone positions as > applied for other measures. > > Maximum SPL > It should be possible to document the maximum SPL of a system. In some cases > like in the calibrated cinema, the required level is given. In other systems > is must be defined by some kind of non-destructive procedure. We need to > define for how long time this max SPL should be present. Similar > considerations exist on the component side. The AES2 standard actually goes > into this. The problem is to define short term / long term (Long term = > lifetime?). We will learn from the AES2 revision to define common terms if > possible. > > Acoustical noise > It is important to measure the emitted acoustic noise from the system (hiss > from speakers, ENF-components, fans, etc.). It was suggested to document > this by measuring spectra. One measurement of the noise spectrum with the > system on and one or two measurements with the system off; two measurements, > for worst and best case scenario regarding room settings of ventilation, > light and so on...

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<TITLE> [SC-04-08] Report AES 138 </TITLE> pre { white-space: pre-wrap; /* css-2.1, curent FF, Opera, Safari */ } <H1>[SC-04-08] Report AES 138</H1> david murphy <A HREF="mailto:sc-04-08%40standards.aes.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BSC-04-08%5D%20Report%20AES%20138&In-Reply-To=%3CDC98EF6CF2F08F40AA5AA23B3509EDA9804D5E7B31%40KRIX-DC.Krix.local%3E" TITLE="[SC-04-08] Report AES 138">dmurphy at krix.com.au </A> Fri Oct 9 03:59:07 EDT 2015 <UL> <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="000302.html">[SC-04-08] Report AES 138 </A></li> <LI>Next message: <A HREF="000304.html">[SC-04-08] Report AES 138 </A></li> <LI> Messages sorted by: <a href="date.html#303">[ date ]</a> <a href="thread.html#303">[ thread ]</a> <a href="subject.html#303">[ subject ]</a> <a href="author.html#303">[ author ]</a> </LI> </UL> <HR>  <PRE>Hi Peter, would I be able to have 15 minutes of the C'tee's time to present a few slides of the results of my simulations and measurements using a low frequency end-fire array of 8 microphones. It shows some promise in dis-entangling the room reflections, but it seems to me needs some more development... I am presenting a paper in the Cinema Sound session - last thing on Sunday, paralleled with the session on Sound Reinforcement chaired by you. best regards David David Murphy Loudspeaker Design Engineer Commercial Cinema Krix 14 Chapman Road | Hackham SA 5163 | Australia T +618 83843433 | F +618 83843419 Email: <A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">dmurphy at krix.com</A> | Web: www.krix.com DISCLAIMER: This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential to the intended recipient and may be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify Krix immediately. Whilst we have used software to alert us to the presence of computer viruses, we cannot guarantee that this email and any files transmitted with it are free from them. ________________________________________ From: SC-04-08 [<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">sc-04-08-bounces at standards.aes.org</A>] On Behalf Of Peter Mapp via SC-04-08 [<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">sc-04-08 at standards.aes.org</A>] Sent: Friday, 9 October 2015 5:30 PM To: Eddy B. Brixen; Working group on Measurement and equalization of sound systems in rooms Subject: Re: [SC-04-08] Report AES 138 Hi Eddy Thanks for excellent report. Looks like some good progress was made in Warsaw. I look forward to the meeting in New York. Best regards Peter Sent from my iPad > On 8 Oct 2015, at 23:04, Eddy B. Brixen via SC-04-08 <<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">sc-04-08 at standards.aes.org</A>> wrote: > > Dear WG of SC-04-08, > Please find below the report of May 2015 meeting > Br, Eddy B. Brixen > > SC-04-08 meeting report, Warsaw, May 2015. > > The meeting was convened by interim chair Eddy B. Brixen. > > The secretary presented the formal notice on patent policy. > > The Agenda and report of the previous meeting, held in Los Angeles, CA, USA > 2014-10-10, were accepted as written. > > Development Projects > AES-X215 - "Liaison with SMPTE project to codify current procedures to > calibrate the cinema B-chain." > Since the last meeting, the AES comments have been reported to the SMPTE. > This report fulfills the task and the project is now closed. > > AES-X216 - "Liaison with SMPTE project on Calibration Pink-Noise Standard > and Test File." > Since the last meeting, the AES comments have been reported to the SMPTE. > This report fulfills the task and the project is now closed. > > AES-X218 - "Measurement and calibration of sound systems in rooms." > The main topic of the meeting was this project. > > One inspiration for this project is, of course, the SMPTE document. However, > as this solely apply to digital cinema sound systems; it will not completely > cover the needs of the AES-project, as X218 should be relevant also in > connection with rooms that are more complex and complex systems. The > implication of amplified microphones is one issue. > > Number of microphone positions or measurement points > The standard deviation more or less defines the number of measurement > points. Brian Vessa mentioned that his upcoming report regarding cinema > check (to be finished by September 2015) suggested five positions. This > procedure is not for the calibration of new installations, just for the > verification of existing ones. Further, it primarily deals with rooms having > only one seating area. For venues having more than a primary seating area, > for instance, rooms with balconies, this has to be evaluated separately. > > Cengale and Mateos from Dolby presented a paper in 2014. The title is > "Effect of microphone number and positioning on the average of frequency > responses in cinema calibration" (AES Preprint 9083). This paper concludes > that there is no reason for more than 8 microphone positions within a single > area. > > In rooms with less homogenous sound distribution it is not possible just to > average eight microphones, as some may happen to be positioned in poorly > covered spots. Each point should be evaluated separately. Averaging data is > throwing data away. Bad systems may require more microphone positions. > However, more measurements does not make the speaker system perform better. > To avoid an unrealistic high number of positions, rooms should be classified > so the expectations more or less define how detailed measurements that > should be performed. > > Among the members of the group, the implementation of 8-9 microphone > positions seem to be common and scaling up for larger rooms. > > Thomas Lago: Taking the coherence into account gives the possibility of > knowing whether the measurement relates to the speaker measured. The > accepted coherence can be defined in relation to the quality of the > measurement. However, in rooms like concert halls for classic music the > coherence may become low due to reverberation. If basing measurements on > coherence the limits must be defined depending on room type. > > The group shortly touched on measurement techniques for mapping measurement > results, including the involvement of wireless techniques. > > What kind of measurement microphone should apply? Diffuse field / free field > / Head and Torso? If the coherence is low it doesn't matter what kind of > microphone or is chosen. On the other hand, HATS provide a result closer to > the perceived sound although they are expensive and time consuming to move > around. Less expensive ear-simulators should be available but still, > implementation is not a feasible solution at this point. In a near future it > should be considered to apply microphone arrays for 3D measurements as it is > already implemented for concert hall measurements. Object based audio also > apply ceiling speakers, thus a 3D presentation of the sound field can be of > interest. However, so far we are aiming for the simple solution utilizing > single point pressure microphones. > > No final conclusion was made regarding the number of microphone positions. > However, all group members were requested to forward ideas on best practice > based on their daily work. > > Measurement signal > It should be possible to synchronize the measurement system to the signal. > This excludes the old method of just applying a pink noise generator and do > the measurement with a RTA. Therefore, the final methodology should build on > impulse response by applying MLS or the like. > > Front-end microphones / acoustic feedback > The basic purpose of many PA/SR systems is to provide amplification to > microphone signals. Too much amplification produces unwanted acoustic > feedback. Do we need to develop a method to measure SPL before feedback in > order to document the threshold of instability? The NT ACOU 108 has a method > that provides data on this. In the discussion, it was mentioned that it > should be possible to document this basic system. However, there are many > parameters to define like microphone position, microphone directivity and so > on. N...

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<TITLE> [SC-04-08] Report AES 138 </TITLE> pre { white-space: pre-wrap; /* css-2.1, curent FF, Opera, Safari */ } <H1>[SC-04-08] Report AES 138</H1> Peter Mapp <A HREF="mailto:sc-04-08%40standards.aes.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BSC-04-08%5D%20Report%20AES%20138&In-Reply-To=%3CF84547FE-9D4F-46FC-9633-2572ED9A9B21%40petermapp.com%3E" TITLE="[SC-04-08] Report AES 138">peter at petermapp.com </A> Fri Oct 9 05:46:04 EDT 2015 <UL> <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="000303.html">[SC-04-08] Report AES 138 </A></li> <LI>Next message: <A HREF="000305.html">[SC-04-08] Meetingin NY NY </A></li> <LI> Messages sorted by: <a href="date.html#304">[ date ]</a> <a href="thread.html#304">[ thread ]</a> <a href="subject.html#304">[ subject ]</a> <a href="author.html#304">[ author ]</a> </LI> </UL> <HR>  <PRE>Hi David Fine with me - but I guess ( hope) that Eddy will be chairing the meeting - so need to also confirm it fits in with his schedule Peter Sent from my iPhone On 9 Oct 2015, at 09:04, "david murphy" <<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">dmurphy at krix.com.au</A>> wrote: > Hi Peter, > would I be able to have 15 minutes of the C'tee's time to present a few slides of the results of my simulations and measurements using a low frequency end-fire array of 8 microphones. It shows some promise in dis-entangling the room reflections, but it seems to me needs some more development... > I am presenting a paper in the Cinema Sound session - last thing on Sunday, paralleled with the session on Sound Reinforcement chaired by you. > > best regards > David > > > David Murphy > Loudspeaker Design Engineer > Commercial Cinema > > Krix > 14 Chapman Road | Hackham SA 5163 | Australia > T +618 83843433 | F +618 83843419 > Email: <A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">dmurphy at krix.com</A> | Web: www.krix.com > > > > DISCLAIMER: > This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential to the intended recipient and may be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify Krix immediately. Whilst we have used software to alert us to the presence of computer viruses, we cannot guarantee that this email and any files transmitted with it are free from them. > ________________________________________ > From: SC-04-08 [<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">sc-04-08-bounces at standards.aes.org</A>] On Behalf Of Peter Mapp via SC-04-08 [<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">sc-04-08 at standards.aes.org</A>] > Sent: Friday, 9 October 2015 5:30 PM > To: Eddy B. Brixen; Working group on Measurement and equalization of sound systems in rooms > Subject: Re: [SC-04-08] Report AES 138 > > Hi Eddy > Thanks for excellent report. Looks like some good progress was made in Warsaw. I look forward to the meeting in New York. > > Best regards > Peter > > Sent from my iPad > >> On 8 Oct 2015, at 23:04, Eddy B. Brixen via SC-04-08 <<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">sc-04-08 at standards.aes.org</A>> wrote: >> >> Dear WG of SC-04-08, >> Please find below the report of May 2015 meeting >> Br, Eddy B. Brixen >> >> SC-04-08 meeting report, Warsaw, May 2015. >> >> The meeting was convened by interim chair Eddy B. Brixen. >> >> The secretary presented the formal notice on patent policy. >> >> The Agenda and report of the previous meeting, held in Los Angeles, CA, USA >> 2014-10-10, were accepted as written. >> >> Development Projects >> AES-X215 - "Liaison with SMPTE project to codify current procedures to >> calibrate the cinema B-chain." >> Since the last meeting, the AES comments have been reported to the SMPTE. >> This report fulfills the task and the project is now closed. >> >> AES-X216 - "Liaison with SMPTE project on Calibration Pink-Noise Standard >> and Test File." >> Since the last meeting, the AES comments have been reported to the SMPTE. >> This report fulfills the task and the project is now closed. >> >> AES-X218 - "Measurement and calibration of sound systems in rooms." >> The main topic of the meeting was this project. >> >> One inspiration for this project is, of course, the SMPTE document. However, >> as this solely apply to digital cinema sound systems; it will not completely >> cover the needs of the AES-project, as X218 should be relevant also in >> connection with rooms that are more complex and complex systems. The >> implication of amplified microphones is one issue. >> >> Number of microphone positions or measurement points >> The standard deviation more or less defines the number of measurement >> points. Brian Vessa mentioned that his upcoming report regarding cinema >> check (to be finished by September 2015) suggested five positions. This >> procedure is not for the calibration of new installations, just for the >> verification of existing ones. Further, it primarily deals with rooms having >> only one seating area. For venues having more than a primary seating area, >> for instance, rooms with balconies, this has to be evaluated separately. >> >> Cengale and Mateos from Dolby presented a paper in 2014. The title is >> "Effect of microphone number and positioning on the average of frequency >> responses in cinema calibration" (AES Preprint 9083). This paper concludes >> that there is no reason for more than 8 microphone positions within a single >> area. >> >> In rooms with less homogenous sound distribution it is not possible just to >> average eight microphones, as some may happen to be positioned in poorly >> covered spots. Each point should be evaluated separately. Averaging data is >> throwing data away. Bad systems may require more microphone positions. >> However, more measurements does not make the speaker system perform better. >> To avoid an unrealistic high number of positions, rooms should be classified >> so the expectations more or less define how detailed measurements that >> should be performed. >> >> Among the members of the group, the implementation of 8-9 microphone >> positions seem to be common and scaling up for larger rooms. >> >> Thomas Lago: Taking the coherence into account gives the possibility of >> knowing whether the measurement relates to the speaker measured. The >> accepted coherence can be defined in relation to the quality of the >> measurement. However, in rooms like concert halls for classic music the >> coherence may become low due to reverberation. If basing measurements on >> coherence the limits must be defined depending on room type. >> >> The group shortly touched on measurement techniques for mapping measurement >> results, including the involvement of wireless techniques. >> >> What kind of measurement microphone should apply? Diffuse field / free field >> / Head and Torso? If the coherence is low it doesn't matter what kind of >> microphone or is chosen. On the other hand, HATS provide a result closer to >> the perceived sound although they are expensive and time consuming to move >> around. Less expensive ear-simulators should be available but still, >> implementation is not a feasible solution at this point. In a near future it >> should be considered to apply microphone arrays for 3D measurements as it is >> already implemented for concert hall measurements. Object based audio also >> apply ceiling speakers, thus a 3D presentation of the sound field can be of >> interest. However, so far we are aiming for the simple solution utilizing >> single point pressure microphones. >> >> No final conclusion was made regarding the number of microphone positions. >> However, all group members were requested to forward ideas on best practice >&...

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<TITLE> [SC-04-08] Meetingin NY NY </TITLE> pre { white-space: pre-wrap; /* css-2.1, curent FF, Opera, Safari */ } <H1>[SC-04-08] Meetingin NY NY</H1> david murphy <A HREF="mailto:sc-04-08%40standards.aes.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BSC-04-08%5D%20Meetingin%20NY%20NY&In-Reply-To=%3CDC98EF6CF2F08F40AA5AA23B3509EDA9804D5E7B32%40KRIX-DC.Krix.local%3E" TITLE="[SC-04-08] Meetingin NY NY">dmurphy at krix.com.au </A> Fri Oct 9 19:29:25 EDT 2015 <UL> <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="000304.html">[SC-04-08] Report AES 138 </A></li> <LI>Next message: <A HREF="000306.html">[SC-04-08] Talker training </A></li> <LI> Messages sorted by: <a href="date.html#305">[ date ]</a> <a href="thread.html#305">[ thread ]</a> <a href="subject.html#305">[ subject ]</a> <a href="author.html#305">[ author ]</a> </LI> </UL> <HR>  <PRE>Hi Eddie, I recently emailed Peter Mapp requesting a slot of 15 minutes in the forth coming meeting at AES 139 in NY. He suggested I contact you about the agenda for this meeting. I would like to present a summary of the theory of end-fire microphone arrays and some practical measurement results. I am presenting a formal paper at AES 139, in the last session on Cinema Sound :-(, but would like to present it to the specialist audience at SC-04-08. In brief, since I have noted that people are proposing to use more than the traditional 4 microphones as per SMPTE 202, in fact 8 microphones seems to be mentioned, I propose that a more effective use of 8 microphones is to use them in an end-fire array, a shotgun microphone writ large, as it were. I have analysed the basic theory and polar behaviour of an array of 8 microphones spaced 1 metre apart, and find it gives 'enough' directivity at 30Hz to provide some discrimination against the reflections from the rear and side walls of a typical cinema. I have done some COMSOL simulations at low frequencies showing the time delayed impulse responses, the time aligned and summed impulse response, and the frequency response by FFT in a typical cinema 28m deep by 18m wide by 8 m high. Since writing the paper I have also made measurements in the actual typical cinema, and manually time aligned the impulse responses and calculated the frequency response. In any event, I will be at AES 139, and hope to meet you there. warm regards David David Murphy Loudspeaker Design Engineer Commercial Cinema Krix 14 Chapman Road | Hackham SA 5163 | Australia T +618 83843433 | F +618 83843419 Email: <A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">dmurphy at krix.com</A> | Web: www.krix.com DISCLAIMER: This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential to the intended recipient and may be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify Krix immediately. Whilst we have used software to alert us to the presence of computer viruses, we cannot guarantee that this email and any files transmitted with it are free from them. ________________________________________ From: SC-04-08 [<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">sc-04-08-bounces at standards.aes.org</A>] On Behalf Of Eddy B. Brixen via SC-04-08 [<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">sc-04-08 at standards.aes.org</A>] Sent: Friday, 9 October 2015 8:31 AM To: 'Working group on Measurement and equalization of sound systems in rooms' Subject: [SC-04-08] Report AES 138 Dear WG of SC-04-08, Please find below the report of May 2015 meeting Br, Eddy B. Brixen SC-04-08 meeting report, Warsaw, May 2015. The meeting was convened by interim chair Eddy B. Brixen. The secretary presented the formal notice on patent policy. The Agenda and report of the previous meeting, held in Los Angeles, CA, USA 2014-10-10, were accepted as written. Development Projects AES-X215 - "Liaison with SMPTE project to codify current procedures to calibrate the cinema B-chain." Since the last meeting, the AES comments have been reported to the SMPTE. This report fulfills the task and the project is now closed. AES-X216 - "Liaison with SMPTE project on Calibration Pink-Noise Standard and Test File." Since the last meeting, the AES comments have been reported to the SMPTE. This report fulfills the task and the project is now closed. AES-X218 - "Measurement and calibration of sound systems in rooms." The main topic of the meeting was this project. One inspiration for this project is, of course, the SMPTE document. However, as this solely apply to digital cinema sound systems; it will not completely cover the needs of the AES-project, as X218 should be relevant also in connection with rooms that are more complex and complex systems. The implication of amplified microphones is one issue. Number of microphone positions or measurement points The standard deviation more or less defines the number of measurement points. Brian Vessa mentioned that his upcoming report regarding cinema check (to be finished by September 2015) suggested five positions. This procedure is not for the calibration of new installations, just for the verification of existing ones. Further, it primarily deals with rooms having only one seating area. For venues having more than a primary seating area, for instance, rooms with balconies, this has to be evaluated separately. Cengale and Mateos from Dolby presented a paper in 2014. The title is "Effect of microphone number and positioning on the average of frequency responses in cinema calibration" (AES Preprint 9083). This paper concludes that there is no reason for more than 8 microphone positions within a single area. In rooms with less homogenous sound distribution it is not possible just to average eight microphones, as some may happen to be positioned in poorly covered spots. Each point should be evaluated separately. Averaging data is throwing data away. Bad systems may require more microphone positions. However, more measurements does not make the speaker system perform better. To avoid an unrealistic high number of positions, rooms should be classified so the expectations more or less define how detailed measurements that should be performed. Among the members of the group, the implementation of 8-9 microphone positions seem to be common and scaling up for larger rooms. Thomas Lago: Taking the coherence into account gives the possibility of knowing whether the measurement relates to the speaker measured. The accepted coherence can be defined in relation to the quality of the measurement. However, in rooms like concert halls for classic music the coherence may become low due to reverberation. If basing measurements on coherence the limits must be defined depending on room type. The group shortly touched on measurement techniques for mapping measurement results, including the involvement of wireless techniques. What kind of measurement microphone should apply? Diffuse field / free field / Head and Torso? If the coherence is low it doesn't matter what kind of microphone or is chosen. On the other hand, HATS provide a result closer to the perceived sound although they are expensive and time consuming to move around. Less expensive ear-simulators should be available but still, implementation is not a feasible solution at this point. In a near future it should be considered to apply microphone arrays for 3D measurements as it is already implemented for concert hall measurements. Object based audio also apply ceiling speakers, thus a 3D presentation of the sound field can be of interest. However, so far we are aiming for the simple solution utilizing single point pressure microphones. No final conclusion was made regarding the number of microphone positions. However, all group members were requested to forward ideas on best practice based on their daily work. Measurement signal It should be possible to synchronize the measurement system to the signal. This excludes the old method of just applying a pink noise generator and do the measurement with a RTA. Therefore, the final methodology should build on impulse response by applying MLS or the like. Front-end microphones / acoustic feedback The basic purpose of many PA/SR systems is to provide amplification to microphone signals. Too much amplification produces unwanted acoustic feedback. Do we need to develop a method to measure SPL before feedback in order to document the threshold of instability? The NT ACOU 108 has a method that provides data on this. In the discussion, it was mentioned that it should be possible to document this basic system. However, there are many parameters to define like microphone position, microphone directivity and so on. No conclusion was made on this topic. The group should look up papers related to acoustic feedback problems. Speech Intelligibility On this, we rely completely on IEC 60268-16 (Speech Transmission Index). The measurements are carried out in exactly the same microphone positions as applied for other measures. Maximum SPL It should be possible to document the maximum SPL of a system. In some cases like in the calibrated cinema, the required level is given. In other systems is must be defined by some kind of non-dest...

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<TITLE> [SC-04-08] Talker training </TITLE> pre { white-space: pre-wrap; /* css-2.1, curent FF, Opera, Safari */ } <H1>[SC-04-08] Talker training</H1> John Woodgate <A HREF="mailto:sc-04-08%40standards.aes.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BSC-04-08%5D%20Talker%20training&In-Reply-To=%3C00ce01d10292%240041fb60%2400c5f220%24%40btinternet.com%3E" TITLE="[SC-04-08] Talker training">jmw1937 at btinternet.com </A> Fri Oct 9 08:57:05 EDT 2015 <UL> <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="000305.html">[SC-04-08] Meetingin NY NY </A></li> <LI>Next message: <A HREF="000307.html">[SC-04-08] Talker training </A></li> <LI> Messages sorted by: <a href="date.html#306">[ date ]</a> <a href="thread.html#306">[ thread ]</a> <a href="subject.html#306">[ subject ]</a> <a href="author.html#306">[ author ]</a> </LI> </UL> <HR>  <PRE>I mentioned this at the Warsaw meeting. and there has been some progress. We (a group of Brits, including Peter Mapp) will be approaching ISO TC159 through the BSI mirror committee PH/9, to produce a standard. Support from other countries through their ISO/TC159 mirror committees would be very welcome. The attached ZIP includes further information. With best wishes. OOO - Own Opinions Only. www.jmwa.demon.co.uk J M Woodgate and Associates RAYLEIGH Essex England Please note my new email address <A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">jmw1937 at btinternet.com</A> </PRE>  <HR> <UL>  <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="000305.html">[SC-04-08] Meetingin NY NY </A></li> <LI>Next message: <A HREF="000307.html">[SC-04-08] Talker training </A></li> <LI> Messages sorted by: <a href="date.html#306">[ date ]</a> <a href="thread.html#306">[ thread ]</a> <a href="subject.html#306">[ subject ]</a> <a href="author.html#306">[ author ]</a> </LI> </UL> <hr> <a href="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">More information about the SC-04-08 mailing list</a> 

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<TITLE> [SC-04-08] - Warsaw </TITLE> pre { white-space: pre-wrap; /* css-2.1, curent FF, Opera, Safari */ } <H1>[SC-04-08] - Warsaw</H1> david murphy <A HREF="mailto:sc-04-08%40standards.aes.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BSC-04-08%5D%20-%20Warsaw&In-Reply-To=%3CDC98EF6CF2F08F40AA5AA23B3509EDA97FECE17CBF%40KRIX-DC.Krix.local%3E" TITLE="[SC-04-08] - Warsaw">dmurphy at krix.com.au </A> Mon Apr 27 00:42:32 EDT 2015 <UL> <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="000293.html">[SC-04-08] - Warsaw </A></li> <LI>Next message: <A HREF="000295.html">[SC-04-08] - Warsaw </A></li> <LI> Messages sorted by: <a href="date.html#294">[ date ]</a> <a href="thread.html#294">[ thread ]</a> <a href="subject.html#294">[ subject ]</a> <a href="author.html#294">[ author ]</a> </LI> </UL> <HR>  <PRE>Hi all, I will not be in Warsaw, but intend to be at AES NY. I hope you have a productive meeting. warm regards from Down Under David David Murphy Loudspeaker Design Engineer Commercial Cinema Krix 14 Chapman Road | Hackham SA 5163 | Australia T +618 83843433 | F +618 83843419 Email: <A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">dmurphy at krix.com</A> | Web: www.krix.com DISCLAIMER: This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential to the intended recipient and may be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify Krix immediately. Whilst we have used software to alert us to the presence of computer viruses, we cannot guarantee that this email and any files transmitted with it are free from them. ________________________________________ From: SC-04-08 [<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">sc-04-08-bounces at standards.aes.org</A>] On Behalf Of Eddy B. Brixen [<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">ebb at ebb-consult.com</A>] Sent: Wednesday, 22 April 2015 12:47 AM To: 'Working group on Measurement and equalization of sound systems in rooms' Subject: Re: [SC-04-08] - Warsaw Hi Brian, I'll chair the meeting in Warsaw. Cheers Eddy Eddy B. Brixen consultant -----Original Message----- From: SC-04-08 [mailto:<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">sc-04-08-bounces at standards.aes.org</A>] On Behalf Of Brian McCarty Sent: 21. april 2015 15:25 To: Bruce Olson; <A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">sc-04-08 at standards.aes.org</A> Cc: Andres Mayo; Francis Rumsey Subject: [SC-04-08] - Warsaw There has no agenda been posted for SC-04-08 in Warsaw. Has a new chair been named? Who’s managing the meeting in Warsaw? Brian McCarty _______________________________________________ SC-04-08 mailing list <A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">SC-04-08 at standards.aes.org</A> <<A HREF="http://cp.mcafee.com/d/FZsS739J5xcQsK9CzBxNUTsSzssCqen7TXL6QrzAPhOU-VtYSzssCqen7TXCzASzssOCqenQT4Pq2Hslypo55oO3-nXmPpmcw_B-RISqektsspvvW_9Icf8CzDHTbFIEFY-MyOUZR4nRHFGThpVkffGhBrwqrhdFCXYyUqenAkmkXL6XCM0t9X13oEkXvFM07amWPGF8d3zzhOyrFoLtwLtUKgGT2TQ1l9X13oEkXvFM04SOMMyr1vF6y0QJz0AnKMnKYqnjh0nd402X6CC3qr9KSLZyXsL">http://cp.mcafee.com/d/FZsS739J5xcQsK9CzBxNUTsSzssCqen7TXL6QrzAPhOU-VtYSzssCqen7TXCzASzssOCqenQT4Pq2Hslypo55oO3-nXmPpmcw_B-RISqektsspvvW_9Icf8CzDHTbFIEFY-MyOUZR4nRHFGThpVkffGhBrwqrhdFCXYyUqenAkmkXL6XCM0t9X13oEkXvFM07amWPGF8d3zzhOyrFoLtwLtUKgGT2TQ1l9X13oEkXvFM04SOMMyr1vF6y0QJz0AnKMnKYqnjh0nd402X6CC3qr9KSLZyXsL</A>> _______________________________________________ SC-04-08 mailing list <A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">SC-04-08 at standards.aes.org</A> <<A HREF="http://cp.mcafee.com/d/2DRPoQ86Qm4PhOUCqem77ztPqdNOpEVsvvKYrhKejd7bzXBTPqdNOpEVsvvKqejqdNPapEVvjsjdEaJNm9Bwklz8fVvJrdBoO3-nXmPpEVhRNNBZ_HYCMMYyqeuLsKCOyDPX2bbzTkhvmKCHt5DBgY-F6lK1FJcSCrLObxEVuhhpjKYrKr01QDI4dyxjJ-D00sFrHeGAwQeed7a9KByZS2ZTyV2Hsbvg5kDI4dyxjJ-D00jrb329I5-Aq83iSc2huX1uXNFtd41sQg0bIqqodFICRcggLw7b">http://cp.mcafee.com/d/2DRPoQ86Qm4PhOUCqem77ztPqdNOpEVsvvKYrhKejd7bzXBTPqdNOpEVsvvKqejqdNPapEVvjsjdEaJNm9Bwklz8fVvJrdBoO3-nXmPpEVhRNNBZ_HYCMMYyqeuLsKCOyDPX2bbzTkhvmKCHt5DBgY-F6lK1FJcSCrLObxEVuhhpjKYrKr01QDI4dyxjJ-D00sFrHeGAwQeed7a9KByZS2ZTyV2Hsbvg5kDI4dyxjJ-D00jrb329I5-Aq83iSc2huX1uXNFtd41sQg0bIqqodFICRcggLw7b</A>> </PRE>  <HR> <UL>  <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="000293.html">[SC-04-08] - Warsaw </A></li> <LI>Next message: <A HREF="000295.html">[SC-04-08] - Warsaw </A></li> <LI> Messages sorted by: <a href="date.html#294">[ date ]</a> <a href="thread.html#294">[ thread ]</a> <a href="subject.html#294">[ subject ]</a> <a href="author.html#294">[ author ]</a> </LI> </UL> <hr> <a href="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">More information about the SC-04-08 mailing list</a> 

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<TITLE> [SC-04-08] - Warsaw </TITLE> pre { white-space: pre-wrap; /* css-2.1, curent FF, Opera, Safari */ } <H1>[SC-04-08] - Warsaw</H1> philip newell <A HREF="mailto:sc-04-08%40standards.aes.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BSC-04-08%5D%20-%20Warsaw&In-Reply-To=%3CCAEEhACktTeMvkbUqvwSXTzHv4LYiLqgVYy5AHoFU5a-YUTBaeA%40mail.gmail.com%3E" TITLE="[SC-04-08] - Warsaw">philiprnewell at gmail.com </A> Mon Apr 27 11:31:21 EDT 2015 <UL> <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="000294.html">[SC-04-08] - Warsaw </A></li> <LI>Next message: <A HREF="000296.html">[SC-04-08] - Warsaw </A></li> <LI> Messages sorted by: <a href="date.html#295">[ date ]</a> <a href="thread.html#295">[ thread ]</a> <a href="subject.html#295">[ subject ]</a> <a href="author.html#295">[ author ]</a> </LI> </UL> <HR>  <PRE>Quite incredibly, I cannot get from Vigo (Spain) to Warsaw and back (on the 6th and 11th) within single days of travelling there and back. It can only be done with an overnight stay, en route, in one direction and 14 hours of travelling in the other direction with a need to get to an airport by 4.30 am. It is all out of the question. Best wishes, Philip On 27 April 2015 at 06:42, david murphy <<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">dmurphy at krix.com.au</A>> wrote: > Hi all, > I will not be in Warsaw, but intend to be at AES NY. > I hope you have a productive meeting. > warm regards from Down Under > David > > David Murphy > Loudspeaker Design Engineer > Commercial Cinema > > Krix > 14 Chapman Road | Hackham SA 5163 | Australia > T +618 83843433 | F +618 83843419 > Email: <A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">dmurphy at krix.com</A> | Web: www.krix.com > > > > DISCLAIMER: > This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential to the > intended recipient and may be privileged. If you are not the intended > recipient, please notify Krix immediately. Whilst we have used software to > alert us to the presence of computer viruses, we cannot guarantee that this > email and any files transmitted with it are free from them. > ________________________________________ > From: SC-04-08 [<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">sc-04-08-bounces at standards.aes.org</A>] On Behalf Of Eddy B. > Brixen [<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">ebb at ebb-consult.com</A>] > Sent: Wednesday, 22 April 2015 12:47 AM > To: 'Working group on Measurement and equalization of sound systems > in rooms' > Subject: Re: [SC-04-08] - Warsaw > > Hi Brian, > I'll chair the meeting in Warsaw. > Cheers > Eddy > > Eddy B. Brixen > consultant > > -----Original Message----- > From: SC-04-08 [mailto:<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">sc-04-08-bounces at standards.aes.org</A>] On Behalf Of > Brian McCarty > Sent: 21. april 2015 15:25 > To: Bruce Olson; <A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">sc-04-08 at standards.aes.org</A> > Cc: Andres Mayo; Francis Rumsey > Subject: [SC-04-08] - Warsaw > > There has no agenda been posted for SC-04-08 in Warsaw. > > Has a new chair been named? > Who’s managing the meeting in Warsaw? > > > Brian McCarty > > > > > _______________________________________________ > SC-04-08 mailing list > <A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">SC-04-08 at standards.aes.org</A> > < > <A HREF="http://cp.mcafee.com/d/FZsS739J5xcQsK9CzBxNUTsSzssCqen7TXL6QrzAPhOU-VtYSzssCqen7TXCzASzssOCqenQT4Pq2Hslypo55oO3-nXmPpmcw_B-RISqektsspvvW_9Icf8CzDHTbFIEFY-MyOUZR4nRHFGThpVkffGhBrwqrhdFCXYyUqenAkmkXL6XCM0t9X13oEkXvFM07amWPGF8d3zzhOyrFoLtwLtUKgGT2TQ1l9X13oEkXvFM04SOMMyr1vF6y0QJz0AnKMnKYqnjh0nd402X6CC3qr9KSLZyXsL">http://cp.mcafee.com/d/FZsS739J5xcQsK9CzBxNUTsSzssCqen7TXL6QrzAPhOU-VtYSzssCqen7TXCzASzssOCqenQT4Pq2Hslypo55oO3-nXmPpmcw_B-RISqektsspvvW_9Icf8CzDHTbFIEFY-MyOUZR4nRHFGThpVkffGhBrwqrhdFCXYyUqenAkmkXL6XCM0t9X13oEkXvFM07amWPGF8d3zzhOyrFoLtwLtUKgGT2TQ1l9X13oEkXvFM04SOMMyr1vF6y0QJz0AnKMnKYqnjh0nd402X6CC3qr9KSLZyXsL</A> > > > > _______________________________________________ > SC-04-08 mailing list > <A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">SC-04-08 at standards.aes.org</A> > < > <A HREF="http://cp.mcafee.com/d/2DRPoQ86Qm4PhOUCqem77ztPqdNOpEVsvvKYrhKejd7bzXBTPqdNOpEVsvvKqejqdNPapEVvjsjdEaJNm9Bwklz8fVvJrdBoO3-nXmPpEVhRNNBZ_HYCMMYyqeuLsKCOyDPX2bbzTkhvmKCHt5DBgY-F6lK1FJcSCrLObxEVuhhpjKYrKr01QDI4dyxjJ-D00sFrHeGAwQeed7a9KByZS2ZTyV2Hsbvg5kDI4dyxjJ-D00jrb329I5-Aq83iSc2huX1uXNFtd41sQg0bIqqodFICRcggLw7b">http://cp.mcafee.com/d/2DRPoQ86Qm4PhOUCqem77ztPqdNOpEVsvvKYrhKejd7bzXBTPqdNOpEVsvvKqejqdNPapEVvjsjdEaJNm9Bwklz8fVvJrdBoO3-nXmPpEVhRNNBZ_HYCMMYyqeuLsKCOyDPX2bbzTkhvmKCHt5DBgY-F6lK1FJcSCrLObxEVuhhpjKYrKr01QDI4dyxjJ-D00sFrHeGAwQeed7a9KByZS2ZTyV2Hsbvg5kDI4dyxjJ-D00jrb329I5-Aq83iSc2huX1uXNFtd41sQg0bIqqodFICRcggLw7b</A> > > > _______________________________________________ > SC-04-08 mailing list > <A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">SC-04-08 at standards.aes.org</A> > <<A HREF="http://standards.aes.org/sc.cfm?ID=91">http://standards.aes.org/sc.cfm?ID=91</A>> > </PRE>  <HR> <UL>  <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="000294.html">[SC-04-08] - Warsaw </A></li> <LI>Next message: <A HREF="000296.html">[SC-04-08] - Warsaw </A></li> <LI> Messages sorted by: <a href="date.html#295">[ date ]</a> <a href="thread.html#295">[ thread ]</a> <a href="subject.html#295">[ subject ]</a> <a href="author.html#295">[ author ]</a> </LI> </UL> <hr> <a href="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">More information about the SC-04-08 mailing list</a> 

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<TITLE> [SC-04-08] - Warsaw </TITLE> pre { white-space: pre-wrap; /* css-2.1, curent FF, Opera, Safari */ } <H1>[SC-04-08] - Warsaw</H1> Brian McCarty <A HREF="mailto:sc-04-08%40standards.aes.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BSC-04-08%5D%20-%20Warsaw&In-Reply-To=%3C44098E49-FDFD-4847-A8A1-10B32A59A5ED%40coralseastudios.com%3E" TITLE="[SC-04-08] - Warsaw">bmccarty at coralseastudios.com </A> Mon Apr 27 23:07:33 EDT 2015 <UL> <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="000295.html">[SC-04-08] - Warsaw </A></li> <LI>Next message: <A HREF="000297.html">[SC-04-08] - Warsaw </A></li> <LI> Messages sorted by: <a href="date.html#296">[ date ]</a> <a href="thread.html#296">[ thread ]</a> <a href="subject.html#296">[ subject ]</a> <a href="author.html#296">[ author ]</a> </LI> </UL> <HR>  <PRE>Well that’s a bummer. But thanks for thinking of me anyway, Philip. You heard yesterday the level of acoustical knowledge that’s now inhabiting the immersive group. Roger Dressler is a terrific ally, but I wonder why no one from Dolby proffers an opinion. Maybe they don’t know, either? Brian > On 27 Apr 2015, at 6:31 pm, philip newell <<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">philiprnewell at gmail.com</A>> wrote: > > Quite incredibly, I cannot get from Vigo (Spain) to Warsaw and back (on the > 6th and 11th) within single days of travelling there and back. It can only > be done with an overnight stay, en route, in one direction and 14 hours of > travelling in the other direction with a need to get to an airport by 4.30 > am. It is all out of the question. > > > Best wishes, > > > > Philip > > > > On 27 April 2015 at 06:42, david murphy <<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">dmurphy at krix.com.au</A>> wrote: > >> Hi all, >> I will not be in Warsaw, but intend to be at AES NY. >> I hope you have a productive meeting. >> warm regards from Down Under >> David >> >> David Murphy >> Loudspeaker Design Engineer >> Commercial Cinema >> >> Krix >> 14 Chapman Road | Hackham SA 5163 | Australia >> T +618 83843433 | F +618 83843419 >> Email: <A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">dmurphy at krix.com</A> | Web: www.krix.com >> >> >> >> DISCLAIMER: >> This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential to the >> intended recipient and may be privileged. If you are not the intended >> recipient, please notify Krix immediately. Whilst we have used software to >> alert us to the presence of computer viruses, we cannot guarantee that this >> email and any files transmitted with it are free from them. >> ________________________________________ >> From: SC-04-08 [<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">sc-04-08-bounces at standards.aes.org</A>] On Behalf Of Eddy B. >> Brixen [<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">ebb at ebb-consult.com</A>] >> Sent: Wednesday, 22 April 2015 12:47 AM >> To: 'Working group on Measurement and equalization of sound systems >> in rooms' >> Subject: Re: [SC-04-08] - Warsaw >> >> Hi Brian, >> I'll chair the meeting in Warsaw. >> Cheers >> Eddy >> >> Eddy B. Brixen >> consultant >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: SC-04-08 [mailto:<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">sc-04-08-bounces at standards.aes.org</A>] On Behalf Of >> Brian McCarty >> Sent: 21. april 2015 15:25 >> To: Bruce Olson; <A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">sc-04-08 at standards.aes.org</A> >> Cc: Andres Mayo; Francis Rumsey >> Subject: [SC-04-08] - Warsaw >> >> There has no agenda been posted for SC-04-08 in Warsaw. >> >> Has a new chair been named? >> Who’s managing the meeting in Warsaw? >> >> >> Brian McCarty >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> SC-04-08 mailing list >> <A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">SC-04-08 at standards.aes.org</A> >> < >> <A HREF="http://cp.mcafee.com/d/FZsS739J5xcQsK9CzBxNUTsSzssCqen7TXL6QrzAPhOU-VtYSzssCqen7TXCzASzssOCqenQT4Pq2Hslypo55oO3-nXmPpmcw_B-RISqektsspvvW_9Icf8CzDHTbFIEFY-MyOUZR4nRHFGThpVkffGhBrwqrhdFCXYyUqenAkmkXL6XCM0t9X13oEkXvFM07amWPGF8d3zzhOyrFoLtwLtUKgGT2TQ1l9X13oEkXvFM04SOMMyr1vF6y0QJz0AnKMnKYqnjh0nd402X6CC3qr9KSLZyXsL">http://cp.mcafee.com/d/FZsS739J5xcQsK9CzBxNUTsSzssCqen7TXL6QrzAPhOU-VtYSzssCqen7TXCzASzssOCqenQT4Pq2Hslypo55oO3-nXmPpmcw_B-RISqektsspvvW_9Icf8CzDHTbFIEFY-MyOUZR4nRHFGThpVkffGhBrwqrhdFCXYyUqenAkmkXL6XCM0t9X13oEkXvFM07amWPGF8d3zzhOyrFoLtwLtUKgGT2TQ1l9X13oEkXvFM04SOMMyr1vF6y0QJz0AnKMnKYqnjh0nd402X6CC3qr9KSLZyXsL</A> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> SC-04-08 mailing list >> <A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">SC-04-08 at standards.aes.org</A> >> < >> <A HREF="http://cp.mcafee.com/d/2DRPoQ86Qm4PhOUCqem77ztPqdNOpEVsvvKYrhKejd7bzXBTPqdNOpEVsvvKqejqdNPapEVvjsjdEaJNm9Bwklz8fVvJrdBoO3-nXmPpEVhRNNBZ_HYCMMYyqeuLsKCOyDPX2bbzTkhvmKCHt5DBgY-F6lK1FJcSCrLObxEVuhhpjKYrKr01QDI4dyxjJ-D00sFrHeGAwQeed7a9KByZS2ZTyV2Hsbvg5kDI4dyxjJ-D00jrb329I5-Aq83iSc2huX1uXNFtd41sQg0bIqqodFICRcggLw7b">http://cp.mcafee.com/d/2DRPoQ86Qm4PhOUCqem77ztPqdNOpEVsvvKYrhKejd7bzXBTPqdNOpEVsvvKqejqdNPapEVvjsjdEaJNm9Bwklz8fVvJrdBoO3-nXmPpEVhRNNBZ_HYCMMYyqeuLsKCOyDPX2bbzTkhvmKCHt5DBgY-F6lK1FJcSCrLObxEVuhhpjKYrKr01QDI4dyxjJ-D00sFrHeGAwQeed7a9KByZS2ZTyV2Hsbvg5kDI4dyxjJ-D00jrb329I5-Aq83iSc2huX1uXNFtd41sQg0bIqqodFICRcggLw7b</A> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> SC-04-08 mailing list >> <A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">SC-04-08 at standards.aes.org</A> >> <<A HREF="http://standards.aes.org/sc.cfm?ID=91">http://standards.aes.org/sc.cfm?ID=91</A>> >> > _______________________________________________ > SC-04-08 mailing list > <A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">SC-04-08 at standards.aes.org</A> > <<A HREF="http://standards.aes.org/sc.cfm?ID=91">http://standards.aes.org/sc.cfm?ID=91</A>> </PRE>  <HR> <UL>  <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="000295.html">[SC-04-08] - Warsaw </A></li> <LI>Next message: <A HREF="000297.html">[SC-04-08] - Warsaw </A></li> <LI> Messages sorted by: <a href="date.html#296">[ date ]</a> <a href="thread.html#296">[ thread ]</a> <a href="subject.html#296">[ subject ]</a> <a href="author.html#296">[ author ]</a> </LI> </UL> <hr> <a href="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">More information about the SC-04-08 mailing list</a> 

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<TITLE> [SC-04-08] X216 proposed output for comment </TITLE> pre { white-space: pre-wrap; /* css-2.1, curent FF, Opera, Safari */ } <H1>[SC-04-08] X216 proposed output for comment</H1> AES Standards <A HREF="mailto:sc-04-08%40standards.aes.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BSC-04-08%5D%20X216%20proposed%20output%20for%20comment&In-Reply-To=%3C5D540483-7528-4ED7-AA62-3A0BEF3FE706%40aes.org%3E" TITLE="[SC-04-08] X216 proposed output for comment">standards at aes.org </A> Tue Jan 20 07:56:25 EST 2015 <UL> <LI>Next message: <A HREF="000288.html">[SC-04-08] X216 proposed output for comment - final call </A></li> <LI> Messages sorted by: <a href="date.html#287">[ date ]</a> <a href="thread.html#287">[ thread ]</a> <a href="subject.html#287">[ subject ]</a> <a href="author.html#287">[ author ]</a> </LI> </UL> <HR>  <PRE>Dear SC-04-08, You will appreciate that project AES-X216 is currently running late. The scope of this project is: "This project will liaise with SMPTE TC-25CSS in their project to "Create a pink-noise Standard, and a reference pink-noise file available in a digital audio file and DCP formats that conform to the description of the pink noise in ST 202:2010 and RP 200-2012 and for which the time domain (mean, standard deviation, skew, kurtosis, etc) and frequency domain (energy per bandwidth, bandwidth, etc) characteristics are defined. Specify the algorithm used to generate the pink-noise file." The project will consider comments as appropriate for communication to SMPTE." I have compiled the results of this group's discussions, both on the reflector and as reported from meeting reports, as a proposed output from this group to SMPTE. Please let me know any comments as soon as possible. Your comments at this point should include alternative wording where appropriate. All reference documents are on the SC-04-08 document site. A direct login is available to members at: <A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/standards/documents/?ID=91">https://secure.aes.org/standards/documents/?ID=91</A> Thank you. Mark Yonge Vice-chair, SC-04-08 ********** Comments from this group: Pink noise should be generated from a pseudo-random binary sequence (PRBS) for repeatability. A pseudo random binary sequence is a sequence of digital values that has a spectrum similar to a random sequence of bits but is deterministically generated. Repeated iterations of the pseudo-random sequence should be used to produce continuous noise of arbitrary length. The PRBS could be generated using a maximum length sequence (MLS), but other forms of PRBS may be satisfactory. A pseudo-random sequence length of about 10s seems reasonable. Shorter sequences will be audibly repetitive. Longer sequences prevent predictably-rapid settling of the meter. The white-noise spectrum produced by a PRBS should be converted to pink noise using a suitable filter (aka "pinking filter"). Band-limiting. To obtain reproducible results and to avoid of over-stressing the equipment or system under test, the applied noise signal should not contain frequencies that the object under test is not intended to handle. A bandwidth of 20 Hz to 20kHz should be good for full-range systems. It is recommended that noise signals should be band-limited with maximally-flat amplitude filters of at least the third order - the 4th-order Butterworth filters proposed in the SMPTE draft should achieve this. The amplitude probability density (APD) function of the resulting pink noise should be specified. Two noise signals with the same rms value and spectrum but different APD can often produce very different results when used as test signals. It was suggested that a near-Gaussian probability density function should be preferred to make the audible content predictable. The helpful study by John Woodgate (x216woodgate_noises140606.zip, on the SC-04-08 document site) usefully clarifies this. A crest factor of 12 dB was felt to relate closely to practical conditions, is compatible with a quasi-Gaussian signal, and should also be straightforward to implement. The noise signal characteristics, including bandwidth, spectrum, and APD, for each pink-noise source should be documented, and reported with the results of measurements or tests. The pink-noise content is likely to be corrupted in unknown ways by lossy coding schemes. It will not be appropriate to play the pink noise from an MP3 file from an iPod or mobile phone! The pink noise signal should be coded as linear PCM in a Wave file (or AES31-2 Broadcast Wave file). Playback of the pink noise shall use an unprocessed digital chain terminating, where necessary, in a competent digital-to-analog convertor (DAC) to interface directly to the B-chain. [end comments] An input draft was provided by SMPTE in October (SMPTE-to-AES-re-Pink Noise_2014-10-02.pdf). The following changes are proposed based on the above comments (see also markup in x216-150113-comment-on-smpte-2014-10-02.docx): 2 Terms & Acronyms. Add: "Pseudo random binary sequence - a sequence of digital values that has a spectrum similar to a random sequence of bits but is deterministically generated. Repeated iterations of the pseudo-random sequence should be used to produce continuous noise of arbitrary length. " "Audio sampling rate" should be changed to, "audio sampling frequency". The quantity in this case has little to do with the aggregate load on a transport mechanism and everything to do with the accurate reproduction of the sampled audio signal via a DAC. "Crest factor" should indicate that peak measurements refer to instantaneous peaks, and not any kind of quasi-peak measurement. The definition of "root-mean-square" should indicate the time-dependence of the measurement. There is no such thing as an instantaneous rms value. Propose to use the existing definition from the IEC International Electrotechnical Vocabulary (IEV) [<A HREF="http://www.electropedia.org">http://www.electropedia.org</A>]. "For a time-depending quantity, positive square root of the mean value of the square of the quantity taken over a given time interval." - IEC IEV 103-02-03 "White noise": to reduce divergence, propose to use the existing IEV definition, "noise whose power spectral density is essentially independent of frequency" - IEC IEV 801-21-10 3.1.1 rms value. This clause requires the pink noise to be measured using a 22Hz to 22kHz bandpass filter. Later, in clause 4.2, the low-frequency -3dB point is specified as 10Hz. Should 3.1.1 actually specify a bandwidth of 10Hz to 22kHz? This needs to be clarified. 5.1 Sampling frequency (See above) Propose 2 new sub-clauses to cover the coding and exchange of the signal: 5.3 Signal coding The pink noise signal shall be linearly coded in PCM format. 5.4 Signal storage and exchange The pink-noise signal shall be stored as a Wave file, or Broadcast Wave Format file (see AES31-2). Annex D: Bibliography Propose: IEC 61672-1 Ed.2:2013 Electroacoustics – Sound level meters – Part 1: Specifications. International Electrotechnical Commission, Geneva, Switzerland AES31-2:2012 AES standard on network and file transfer of audio – Audio-file transfer and exchange – File format for transferring digital audio data between systems of different type and manufacture. Audio Engineering Society, New York, NY., US. Mark Yonge AES Standards Manager <A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">standards at aes.org</A> tel: +44 1594 517200 skype: markyonge </PRE>  <HR> <UL>  <LI>Next message: <A HREF="000288.html">[SC-04-08] X216 proposed output for comment - final call </A></li> <LI> Messages sorted by: <a href="date.html#287">[ date ]</a> <a href="thread.html#287">[ thread ]</a> <a href="subject.html#287">[ subject ]</a> <a href="author.html#287">[ author ]</a> </LI> </UL> <hr> <a href="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">More information about the SC-04-08 mailing list</a> 

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<TITLE> [SC-04-08] X216 proposed output for comment - final call </TITLE> pre { white-space: pre-wrap; /* css-2.1, curent FF, Opera, Safari */ } <H1>[SC-04-08] X216 proposed output for comment - final call</H1> AES Standards <A HREF="mailto:sc-04-08%40standards.aes.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BSC-04-08%5D%20X216%20proposed%20output%20for%20comment%20-%20final%20call&In-Reply-To=%3CFEAF7238-6241-4A53-91AE-6B2C53E433AC%40aes.org%3E" TITLE="[SC-04-08] X216 proposed output for comment - final call">standards at aes.org </A> Fri Jan 30 12:35:45 EST 2015 <UL> <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="000287.html">[SC-04-08] X216 proposed output for comment </A></li> <LI>Next message: <A HREF="000289.html">[SC-04-08] Liaison report: AES-X216 on Calibration Pink-Noise Standard and Test File </A></li> <LI> Messages sorted by: <a href="date.html#288">[ date ]</a> <a href="thread.html#288">[ thread ]</a> <a href="subject.html#288">[ subject ]</a> <a href="author.html#288">[ author ]</a> </LI> </UL> <HR>  <PRE>Dear C-04-08, You will have seen this request for comment from 20 January. I have seen no comment from this group so far. Assuming that no comment arrives over the weekend, I propose on Monday to forward this material to SMPTE as as AES output from liaison project AES-X216. Sincerely, Mark Yonge vice-chair SC-04-08 > On 2015-01-20, at 12:56, AES Standards <<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">standards at aes.org</A>> wrote: > > Dear SC-04-08, > > You will appreciate that project AES-X216 is currently running late. > > The scope of this project is: "This project will liaise with SMPTE TC-25CSS in their project to "Create a pink-noise Standard, and a reference pink-noise file available in a digital audio file and DCP formats that conform to the description of the pink noise in ST 202:2010 and RP 200-2012 and for which the time domain (mean, standard deviation, skew, kurtosis, etc) and frequency domain (energy per bandwidth, bandwidth, etc) characteristics are defined. Specify the algorithm used to generate the pink-noise file." The project will consider comments as appropriate for communication to SMPTE." > > I have compiled the results of this group's discussions, both on the reflector and as reported from meeting reports, as a proposed output from this group to SMPTE. Please let me know any comments as soon as possible. Your comments at this point should include alternative wording where appropriate. > > All reference documents are on the SC-04-08 document site. A direct login is available to members at: > <A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/standards/documents/?ID=91">https://secure.aes.org/standards/documents/?ID=91</A> > > Thank you. > > Mark Yonge > Vice-chair, SC-04-08 > > ********** > Comments from this group: > > Pink noise should be generated from a pseudo-random binary sequence (PRBS) for repeatability. A pseudo random binary sequence is a sequence of digital values that has a spectrum similar to a random sequence of bits but is deterministically generated. Repeated iterations of the pseudo-random sequence should be used to produce continuous noise of arbitrary length. The PRBS could be generated using a maximum length sequence (MLS), but other forms of PRBS may be satisfactory. > > A pseudo-random sequence length of about 10s seems reasonable. Shorter sequences will be audibly repetitive. Longer sequences prevent predictably-rapid settling of the meter. > > The white-noise spectrum produced by a PRBS should be converted to pink noise using a suitable filter (aka "pinking filter"). > > Band-limiting. To obtain reproducible results and to avoid of over-stressing the equipment or system under test, the applied noise signal should not contain frequencies that the object under test is not intended to handle. A bandwidth of 20 Hz to 20kHz should be good for full-range systems. It is recommended that noise signals should be band-limited with maximally-flat amplitude filters of at least the third order - the 4th-order Butterworth filters proposed in the SMPTE draft should achieve this. > > The amplitude probability density (APD) function of the resulting pink noise should be specified. Two noise signals with the same rms value and spectrum but different APD can often produce very different results when used as test signals. It was suggested that a near-Gaussian probability density function should be preferred to make the audible content predictable. The helpful study by John Woodgate (x216woodgate_noises140606.zip, on the SC-04-08 document site) usefully clarifies this. > > A crest factor of 12 dB was felt to relate closely to practical conditions, is compatible with a quasi-Gaussian signal, and should also be straightforward to implement. > > The noise signal characteristics, including bandwidth, spectrum, and APD, for each pink-noise source should be documented, and reported with the results of measurements or tests. > > The pink-noise content is likely to be corrupted in unknown ways by lossy coding schemes. It will not be appropriate to play the pink noise from an MP3 file from an iPod or mobile phone! The pink noise signal should be coded as linear PCM in a Wave file (or AES31-2 Broadcast Wave file). > > Playback of the pink noise shall use an unprocessed digital chain terminating, where necessary, in a competent digital-to-analog convertor (DAC) to interface directly to the B-chain. > [end comments] > > > > An input draft was provided by SMPTE in October (SMPTE-to-AES-re-Pink Noise_2014-10-02.pdf). The following changes are proposed based on the above comments (see also markup in x216-150113-comment-on-smpte-2014-10-02.docx): > > 2 Terms & Acronyms. > Add: "Pseudo random binary sequence - a sequence of digital values that has a spectrum similar to a random sequence of bits but is deterministically generated. Repeated iterations of the pseudo-random sequence should be used to produce continuous noise of arbitrary length. " > > "Audio sampling rate" should be changed to, "audio sampling frequency". The quantity in this case has little to do with the aggregate load on a transport mechanism and everything to do with the accurate reproduction of the sampled audio signal via a DAC. > > "Crest factor" should indicate that peak measurements refer to instantaneous peaks, and not any kind of quasi-peak measurement. > > The definition of "root-mean-square" should indicate the time-dependence of the measurement. There is no such thing as an instantaneous rms value. Propose to use the existing definition from the IEC International Electrotechnical Vocabulary (IEV) [<A HREF="http://www.electropedia.org">http://www.electropedia.org</A>]. > "For a time-depending quantity, positive square root of the mean value of the square of the quantity taken over a given time interval." - IEC IEV 103-02-03 > > "White noise": to reduce divergence, propose to use the existing IEV definition, "noise whose power spectral density is essentially independent of frequency" - IEC IEV 801-21-10 > > 3.1.1 rms value. This clause requires the pink noise to be measured using a 22Hz to 22kHz bandpass filter. Later, in clause 4.2, the low-frequency -3dB point is specified as 10Hz. Should 3.1.1 actually specify a bandwidth of 10Hz to 22kHz? This needs to be clarified. > > 5.1 Sampling frequency (See above) > > Propose 2 new sub-clauses to cover the coding and exchange of the signal: > > 5.3 Signal coding > The pink noise signal shall be linearly coded in PCM format. > > 5.4 Signal storage and exchange > The pink-noise signal shall be stored as a Wave file, or Broadcast Wave Format file (see AES31-2). > > Annex D: Bibliography > > Propose: > > IEC 61672-1 Ed.2:2013 Electroacoustics – Sound level meters – Part 1: Specifications. International Electrotechnical Commission, Geneva, Switzerland > > AES31-2:2012 AES standard on network and file transfer of audio – Audio-file transfer and exchange – File format for transferring digital audio data between systems of different type and manufacture. Audio Engineering Society, New York, NY., US. Mark Yonge AES Standards Manager <A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">standards at aes.org</A> tel: +44 1594 517200...

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<TITLE> [SC-04-08] Liaison report: AES-X216 on Calibration Pink-Noise Standard and Test File </TITLE> pre { white-space: pre-wrap; /* css-2.1, curent FF, Opera, Safari */ } <H1>[SC-04-08] Liaison report: AES-X216 on Calibration Pink-Noise Standard and Test File</H1> AES Standards <A HREF="mailto:sc-04-08%40standards.aes.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BSC-04-08%5D%20Liaison%20report%3A%20AES-X216%20on%20Calibration%20Pink-Noise%0A%09Standard%20and%20Test%20File&In-Reply-To=%3C40243661-9273-4E42-8712-6E1156472627%40aes.org%3E" TITLE="[SC-04-08] Liaison report: AES-X216 on Calibration Pink-Noise Standard and Test File">standards at aes.org </A> Thu Feb 5 12:48:18 EST 2015 <UL> <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="000288.html">[SC-04-08] X216 proposed output for comment - final call </A></li> <LI>Next message: <A HREF="000290.html">[SC-04-08] Liaison report: AES-X216 on Calibration Pink-Noise Standard and Test File (ii) </A></li> <LI> Messages sorted by: <a href="date.html#289">[ date ]</a> <a href="thread.html#289">[ thread ]</a> <a href="subject.html#289">[ subject ]</a> <a href="author.html#289">[ author ]</a> </LI> </UL> <HR>  <PRE>Dear Alan, Please find attached our liaison report for project AES-X216 on Calibration Pink-Noise Standard and Test File. Sincerely, Mark Yonge AES Standards Manager <A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">standards at aes.org</A> tel: +44 1594 517200 skype: markyonge </PRE>  <HR> <UL>  <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="000288.html">[SC-04-08] X216 proposed output for comment - final call </A></li> <LI>Next message: <A HREF="000290.html">[SC-04-08] Liaison report: AES-X216 on Calibration Pink-Noise Standard and Test File (ii) </A></li> <LI> Messages sorted by: <a href="date.html#289">[ date ]</a> <a href="thread.html#289">[ thread ]</a> <a href="subject.html#289">[ subject ]</a> <a href="author.html#289">[ author ]</a> </LI> </UL> <hr> <a href="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">More information about the SC-04-08 mailing list</a> 

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<TITLE> [SC-04-08] Liaison report: AES-X216 on Calibration Pink-Noise Standard and Test File (ii) </TITLE> pre { white-space: pre-wrap; /* css-2.1, curent FF, Opera, Safari */ } <H1>[SC-04-08] Liaison report: AES-X216 on Calibration Pink-Noise Standard and Test File (ii)</H1> AES Standards <A HREF="mailto:sc-04-08%40standards.aes.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BSC-04-08%5D%20Liaison%20report%3A%20AES-X216%20on%20Calibration%20Pink-Noise%0A%09Standard%20and%20Test%20File%20%28ii%29&In-Reply-To=%3CFCAA69A2-83E2-4CC3-91D2-30FDFC5C3A76%40aes.org%3E" TITLE="[SC-04-08] Liaison report: AES-X216 on Calibration Pink-Noise Standard and Test File (ii)">standards at aes.org </A> Thu Feb 5 13:43:23 EST 2015 <UL> <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="000289.html">[SC-04-08] Liaison report: AES-X216 on Calibration Pink-Noise Standard and Test File </A></li> <LI>Next message: <A HREF="000291.html">[SC-04-08] - Warsaw </A></li> <LI> Messages sorted by: <a href="date.html#290">[ date ]</a> <a href="thread.html#290">[ thread ]</a> <a href="subject.html#290">[ subject ]</a> <a href="author.html#290">[ author ]</a> </LI> </UL> <HR>  <PRE>Dear Alan, Please find attached our liaison report for project AES-X216 on Calibration Pink-Noise Standard and Test File. Sincerely, Mark Yonge AES Standards Manager <A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">standards at aes.org</A> tel: +44 1594 517200 skype: markyonge -------------- next part -------------- -------------- next part -------------- PS: Because AES email reflectors do not support attachments, SC-04-08 members cam find the attached documents on the secure document site at: <A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/standards/documents/?ID=91">https://secure.aes.org/standards/documents/?ID=91</A> </PRE>  <HR> <UL>  <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="000289.html">[SC-04-08] Liaison report: AES-X216 on Calibration Pink-Noise Standard and Test File </A></li> <LI>Next message: <A HREF="000291.html">[SC-04-08] - Warsaw </A></li> <LI> Messages sorted by: <a href="date.html#290">[ date ]</a> <a href="thread.html#290">[ thread ]</a> <a href="subject.html#290">[ subject ]</a> <a href="author.html#290">[ author ]</a> </LI> </UL> <hr> <a href="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">More information about the SC-04-08 mailing list</a> 

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<TITLE> [SC-04-08] - Warsaw </TITLE> pre { white-space: pre-wrap; /* css-2.1, curent FF, Opera, Safari */ } <H1>[SC-04-08] - Warsaw</H1> Brian McCarty <A HREF="mailto:sc-04-08%40standards.aes.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BSC-04-08%5D%20%20-%20Warsaw&In-Reply-To=%3CF94EEBBF-ED7E-4970-ACAA-A59D09D089B3%40coralseastudios.com%3E" TITLE="[SC-04-08] - Warsaw">bmccarty at coralseastudios.com </A> Tue Apr 21 09:24:48 EDT 2015 <UL> <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="000290.html">[SC-04-08] Liaison report: AES-X216 on Calibration Pink-Noise Standard and Test File (ii) </A></li> <LI>Next message: <A HREF="000292.html">[SC-04-08] - Warsaw </A></li> <LI> Messages sorted by: <a href="date.html#291">[ date ]</a> <a href="thread.html#291">[ thread ]</a> <a href="subject.html#291">[ subject ]</a> <a href="author.html#291">[ author ]</a> </LI> </UL> <HR>  <PRE>There has no agenda been posted for SC-04-08 in Warsaw. Has a new chair been named? Who’s managing the meeting in Warsaw? Brian McCarty </PRE>  <HR> <UL>  <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="000290.html">[SC-04-08] Liaison report: AES-X216 on Calibration Pink-Noise Standard and Test File (ii) </A></li> <LI>Next message: <A HREF="000292.html">[SC-04-08] - Warsaw </A></li> <LI> Messages sorted by: <a href="date.html#291">[ date ]</a> <a href="thread.html#291">[ thread ]</a> <a href="subject.html#291">[ subject ]</a> <a href="author.html#291">[ author ]</a> </LI> </UL> <hr> <a href="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">More information about the SC-04-08 mailing list</a> 

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<TITLE> [SC-04-08] - Warsaw </TITLE> pre { white-space: pre-wrap; /* css-2.1, curent FF, Opera, Safari */ } <H1>[SC-04-08] - Warsaw</H1> Bruce C. Olson <A HREF="mailto:sc-04-08%40standards.aes.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BSC-04-08%5D%20-%20Warsaw&In-Reply-To=%3C005d01d07c42%24f25dbe60%24d7193b20%24%40aes.org%3E" TITLE="[SC-04-08] - Warsaw">bco at aes.org </A> Tue Apr 21 10:53:36 EDT 2015 <UL> <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="000291.html">[SC-04-08] - Warsaw </A></li> <LI>Next message: <A HREF="000293.html">[SC-04-08] - Warsaw </A></li> <LI> Messages sorted by: <a href="date.html#292">[ date ]</a> <a href="thread.html#292">[ thread ]</a> <a href="subject.html#292">[ subject ]</a> <a href="author.html#292">[ author ]</a> </LI> </UL> <HR>  <PRE>See <A HREF="http://www.aes.org/standards/meetings/">http://www.aes.org/standards/meetings/</A> On Tue, Apr 21, 2015 at 08:24:48, Brian McCarty wrote: > There has no agenda been posted for SC-04-08 in Warsaw. > > Has a new chair been named? > Who’s managing the meeting in Warsaw? > > > Brian McCarty -- Bruce C. Olson Audio Engineering Society Standards Committee Chair phone: +1 (763) 493-5835 email: <A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">bco at aes.org</A> web: <A HREF="http://www.aes.org/standards/">http://www.aes.org/standards/</A> </PRE>  <HR> <UL>  <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="000291.html">[SC-04-08] - Warsaw </A></li> <LI>Next message: <A HREF="000293.html">[SC-04-08] - Warsaw </A></li> <LI> Messages sorted by: <a href="date.html#292">[ date ]</a> <a href="thread.html#292">[ thread ]</a> <a href="subject.html#292">[ subject ]</a> <a href="author.html#292">[ author ]</a> </LI> </UL> <hr> <a href="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">More information about the SC-04-08 mailing list</a> 

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<TITLE> [SC-04-08] - Warsaw </TITLE> pre { white-space: pre-wrap; /* css-2.1, curent FF, Opera, Safari */ } <H1>[SC-04-08] - Warsaw</H1> Eddy B. Brixen <A HREF="mailto:sc-04-08%40standards.aes.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BSC-04-08%5D%20-%20Warsaw&In-Reply-To=%3C000601d07c46%244cc50680%24e64f1380%24%40ebb-consult.com%3E" TITLE="[SC-04-08] - Warsaw">ebb at ebb-consult.com </A> Tue Apr 21 11:17:36 EDT 2015 <UL> <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="000292.html">[SC-04-08] - Warsaw </A></li> <LI>Next message: <A HREF="000294.html">[SC-04-08] - Warsaw </A></li> <LI> Messages sorted by: <a href="date.html#293">[ date ]</a> <a href="thread.html#293">[ thread ]</a> <a href="subject.html#293">[ subject ]</a> <a href="author.html#293">[ author ]</a> </LI> </UL> <HR>  <PRE>Hi Brian, I'll chair the meeting in Warsaw. Cheers Eddy Eddy B. Brixen consultant -----Original Message----- From: SC-04-08 [mailto:<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">sc-04-08-bounces at standards.aes.org</A>] On Behalf Of Brian McCarty Sent: 21. april 2015 15:25 To: Bruce Olson; <A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">sc-04-08 at standards.aes.org</A> Cc: Andres Mayo; Francis Rumsey Subject: [SC-04-08] - Warsaw There has no agenda been posted for SC-04-08 in Warsaw. Has a new chair been named? Who’s managing the meeting in Warsaw? Brian McCarty _______________________________________________ SC-04-08 mailing list <A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">SC-04-08 at standards.aes.org</A> <<A HREF="http://standards.aes.org/sc.cfm?ID=91">http://standards.aes.org/sc.cfm?ID=91</A>> </PRE>  <HR> <UL>  <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="000292.html">[SC-04-08] - Warsaw </A></li> <LI>Next message: <A HREF="000294.html">[SC-04-08] - Warsaw </A></li> <LI> Messages sorted by: <a href="date.html#293">[ date ]</a> <a href="thread.html#293">[ thread ]</a> <a href="subject.html#293">[ subject ]</a> <a href="author.html#293">[ author ]</a> </LI> </UL> <hr> <a href="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">More information about the SC-04-08 mailing list</a> 

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<title>The SC-04-08 2014 Archive by thread</title> <a name="start"></A> <h1>2014 Archives by thread</h1> <ul> <li> Messages sorted by: <a href="subject.html#start">[ subject ]</a> <a href="author.html#start">[ author ]</a> <a href="date.html#start">[ date ]</a> <li><a href="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">More info on this list... </a></li> </ul> Starting: Wed Jan 15 07:42:45 MST 2014 Ending: Sat Nov 15 16:23:44 MST 2014 Messages: 136 <ul>  <LI><A HREF="000151.html">[SC-04-08] WG meeting report New York 2013-10 </A><A NAME="151"> </A> Ben Kok <UL>  <LI><A HREF="000152.html">[SC-04-08] WG meeting report New York 2013-10 </A><A NAME="152"> </A> Andreas Silzle <UL>  <LI><A HREF="000153.html">[SC-04-08] WG meeting report New York 2013-10 </A><A NAME="153"> </A> John Woodgate <UL>  <LI><A HREF="000154.html">[SC-04-08] WG meeting report New York 2013-10, MLS </A><A NAME="154"> </A> Andreas Silzle  <LI><A HREF="000158.html">[SC-04-08] WG meeting report New York 2013-10, MLS </A><A NAME="158"> </A> Thomas Lagö  <LI><A HREF="000155.html">[SC-04-08] WG meeting report New York 2013-10, MLS </A><A NAME="155"> </A> Smithers, Michael  <LI><A HREF="000156.html">[SC-04-08] WG meeting report New York 2013-10, MLS </A><A NAME="156"> </A> John Woodgate  <LI><A HREF="000159.html">[SC-04-08] WG meeting report New York 2013-10, MLS </A><A NAME="159"> </A> Thomas Lagö  <LI><A HREF="000160.html">[SC-04-08] WG meeting report New York 2013-10, MLS </A><A NAME="160"> </A> Smithers, Michael  <LI><A HREF="000161.html">[SC-04-08] WG meeting report New York 2013-10, MLS </A><A NAME="161"> </A> David Josephson  <LI><A HREF="000162.html">[SC-04-08] WG meeting report New York 2013-10, MLS </A><A NAME="162"> </A> John Woodgate  <LI><A HREF="000163.html">[SC-04-08] WG meeting report New York 2013-10, MLS </A><A NAME="163"> </A> philip newell  <LI><A HREF="000164.html">[SC-04-08] WG meeting report New York 2013-10, MLS </A><A NAME="164"> </A> John Woodgate  <LI><A HREF="000157.html">[SC-04-08] WG meeting report New York 2013-10, MLS </A><A NAME="157"> </A> David Josephson </UL> </UL> </UL>  <LI><A HREF="000165.html">[SC-04-08] Uploads </A><A NAME="165"> </A> Pete Soper  <LI><A HREF="000166.html">[SC-04-08] GoToMeeting Invitation - AES SC-04-08, Berlin </A><A NAME="166"> </A> Mark Yonge <UL>  <LI><A HREF="000167.html">[SC-04-08] GoToMeeting Invitation - AES SC-04-08, Berlin </A><A NAME="167"> </A> Thomas Lagö  <LI><A HREF="000169.html">[SC-04-08] GoToMeeting Invitation - AES SC-04-08, Berlin </A><A NAME="169"> </A> Glenn Leembruggen  <LI><A HREF="000170.html">[SC-04-08] GoToMeeting Invitation - AES SC-04-08, Berlin </A><A NAME="170"> </A> Bob Walker <UL>  <LI><A HREF="000171.html">[SC-04-08] GoToMeeting Invitation - AES SC-04-08, Berlin </A><A NAME="171"> </A> philip newell </UL> </UL>  <LI><A HREF="000168.html">[SC-04-08] Noise signal samples: AES-X216 </A><A NAME="168"> </A> John Woodgate  <LI><A HREF="000172.html">[SC-04-08] x216 - MLS properties </A><A NAME="172"> </A> Mark Yonge <UL>  <LI><A HREF="000173.html">[SC-04-08] x216 - MLS properties </A><A NAME="173"> </A> John Woodgate </UL>  <LI><A HREF="000174.html">[SC-04-08] AES-X216 Pink noise </A><A NAME="174"> </A> Pete Soper <UL>  <LI><A HREF="000175.html">[SC-04-08] AES-X216 Pink noise </A><A NAME="175"> </A> John Woodgate <UL>  <LI><A HREF="000176.html">[SC-04-08] AES-X216 Pink noise </A><A NAME="176"> </A> david murphy </UL> </UL>  <LI><A HREF="000177.html">[SC-04-08] Report of the Berlin meeting, 2014-04-27 </A><A NAME="177"> </A> Mark Yonge <UL>  <LI><A HREF="000178.html">[SC-04-08] Report of the Berlin meeting, 2014-04-27 </A><A NAME="178"> </A> Thomas Lagö </UL>  <LI><A HREF="000179.html">[SC-04-08] Assessment of white and pink noise signals </A><A NAME="179"> </A> John Woodgate  <LI><A HREF="000180.html">[SC-04-08] AES 137 In Los Angeles Fast Approaching </A><A NAME="180"> </A> Brian McCarty (RS)  <LI><A HREF="000181.html">[SC-04-08] Revision of ITU-R BS.1116-2 </A><A NAME="181"> </A> Mark Yonge <UL>  <LI><A HREF="000182.html">[SC-04-08] Revision of ITU-R BS.1116-2 </A><A NAME="182"> </A> John Woodgate  <LI><A HREF="000183.html">[SC-04-08] Revision of ITU-R BS.1116-2 </A><A NAME="183"> </A> philip newell <UL>  <LI><A HREF="000184.html">[SC-04-08] Revision of ITU-R BS.1116-2 </A><A NAME="184"> </A> John Woodgate <UL>  <LI><A HREF="000185.html">[SC-04-08] Revision of ITU-R BS.1116-2 </A><A NAME="185"> </A> philip newell  <LI><A HREF="000186.html">[SC-04-08] Revision of ITU-R BS.1116-2 </A><A NAME="186"> </A> John Woodgate </UL> </UL> </UL>  <LI><A HREF="000187.html">[SC-04-08] Liaison form SMPTE to AES </A><A NAME="187"> </A> AES Standards  <LI><A HREF="000188.html">[SC-04-08] Liaison from SMPTE to AES re Modern Theatre Calibration </A><A NAME="188"> </A> AES Standards <UL>  <LI><A HREF="000198.html">[SC-04-08] Liaison from SMPTE to AES re Modern Theatre Calibration </A><A NAME="198"> </A> Jean-Luc Ohl <UL>  <LI><A HREF="000199.html">[SC-04-08] Liaison from SMPTE to AES re Modern Theatre Calibration </A><A NAME="199"> </A> philip newell <UL>  <LI><A HREF="000200.html">[SC-04-08] Liaison from SMPTE to AES re Modern Theatre Calibration </A><A NAME="200"> </A> Brian McCarty  <LI><A HREF="000201.html">[SC-04-08] Liaison from SMPTE to AES re Modern Theatre Calibration </A><A NAME="201"> </A> Jean-Luc Ohl  <LI><A HREF="000202.html">[SC-04-08] Liaison from SMPTE to AES re Modern Theatre Calibration </A><A NAME="202"> </A> Brian Long  <LI><A HREF="000203.html">[SC-04-08] Liaison from SMPTE to AES re Modern Theatre Calibration </A><A NAME="203"> </A> philip newell  <LI><A HREF="000204.html">[SC-04-08] Liaison from SMPTE to AES re Modern Theatre Calibration </A><A NAME="204"> </A> Jean-Luc Ohl  <LI><A HREF="000209.html">[SC-04-08] [Liaisons] Liaison from SMPTE to AES re Modern Theatre Calibration </A><A NAME="209"> </A> philip newell  <LI><A HREF="000210.html"...

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<TITLE> [SC-04-08] X215 comments due in one week </TITLE> pre { white-space: pre-wrap; /* css-2.1, curent FF, Opera, Safari */ } <H1>[SC-04-08] X215 comments due in one week</H1> Glenn Leembruggen <A HREF="mailto:sc-04-08%40standards.aes.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BSC-04-08%5D%20X215%20comments%20due%20in%20one%20week&In-Reply-To=%3C000e01cff4ea%24b4d164a0%241e742de0%24%40acousticdirections.com%3E" TITLE="[SC-04-08] X215 comments due in one week">glenn at acousticdirections.com </A> Fri Oct 31 03:11:50 MDT 2014 <UL> <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="000215.html">[SC-04-08] X215 comments due in one week </A></li> <LI>Next message: <A HREF="000283.html">[SC-04-08] X215 comments due in one week </A></li> <LI> Messages sorted by: <a href="date.html#282">[ date ]</a> <a href="thread.html#282">[ thread ]</a> <a href="subject.html#282">[ subject ]</a> <a href="author.html#282">[ author ]</a> </LI> </UL> <HR>  <PRE>Hello All Attached is a Word doc with my preliminary comments and some editorial changes. More will follow when the document goes back to SMPTE. Thanks Glenn Glenn Leembruggen Acoustic Directions Pty Ltd 14 65-67 Crystal St Petersham 2049 Australia PO Box 205 Summer Hill 2130 tel: +61 2 9568 4684 fax: +61 2 9572 8939 mob: +61 418 207 085 The information contained in this e-document and any file attachments is confidential to all parties except the intended recipients. If you are not an intended recipient you have received this document in error and are prohibited from disclosing or using any of the information contained. We would be grateful if you would advise us of such errors immediately by return email. Thank you. -----Original Message----- From: <A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">sc-04-08-bounces at standards.aes.org</A> [mailto:<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">sc-04-08-bounces at standards.aes.org</A>] On Behalf Of Brian Long Sent: Saturday, 25 October 2014 5:30 AM To: Working group on Measurement and equalization of sound systems in rooms Subject: [SC-04-08] X215 comments due in one week Dear SC 04-08 Colleagues, This is a reminder that the comment period on the documents provided by SMPTE for X215 will close in one week. Links to those documents are below in the original email. Regards, Brian Long -----Original Message----- From: Brian Long Sent: Monday, October 13, 2014 6:58 PM To: Working group on Measurement and equalization of sound systems in rooms Subject: X215 Introduction Dear SC -04-08 Colleagues, The Society of Motion Picture Engineers has delivered documents for review as part of the AES X215 project on the modern calibration of cinemas. The development of these documents followed a detailed course starting with a bench test comparison of equipment, through an industry survey, to document development. Following is an overview of what was accomplished in each phase: 1. The bench testing group conducted an analysis of various commercially available RTA and transfer function analysis devices in a laboratory setting. This analysis identified any differences in measurements between the types of devices in the electrical domain. Information on various devices settings that could lead to differences in observed readings were noted. Nuisance variables were explored and discussed including differences in microphones, pre amplifiers, and interpretation of device settings. 2. An industry survey was conducted of technicians who had primary responsibilities of maintaining commercial exhibition spaces and/or content creation spaces (dubbing stages). The survey revealed and documented the knowledge spread and a variety of methods used in the field to calibrate cinemas. 3. A draft document was developed to provide guidance and a basis of information for the calibration process. This document also includes recommendations for the use of transfer function devices. This document is a stop gap measure. It is designed to codify current practices and provide guidance to eliminate nuisance variables as found in the research work while maintaining a streamlined work flow. This work is not proposing alteration of the target curve. Planned future work will continue after this document is complete to evolve calibration methods. The document is quite long. It is not necessary to provide comments across the entire document if you do not wish to. Of particular interest we would welcome comments on the sections regarding microphone placement and number of locations, and under the transfer function use procedures. If additional clarifying background information is needed please send any questions my way. I look forward to your comments by Nov. 1. Please see the document for instructions on the preferred method for providing comments. Direct download links: Word: <A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/standards/documents/?ID=91&file=%2Fx215%2D141002%2DDR">https://secure.aes.org/standards/documents/?ID=91&file=%2Fx215%2D141002%2DDR</A> AFT%2DSMPTE%2DModern%2DCalibration%2Edocx&filesize=1121542 PDF: <A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/standards/documents/?ID=91&file=%2Fx215%2Dx216%2DSMPT">https://secure.aes.org/standards/documents/?ID=91&file=%2Fx215%2Dx216%2DSMPT</A> E%2Dto%2DAES%2Dre%2DModern%2DCalibration%2Dand%2DPink%2DNoise%2D2014%2D09%2D 24%2Dfinal%2Epdf&filesize=61177 Regards, Brian Long _______________________________________________ SC-04-08 mailing list <A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">SC-04-08 at standards.aes.org</A> <<A HREF="http://standards.aes.org/sc.cfm?ID=91">http://standards.aes.org/sc.cfm?ID=91</A>> --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. <A HREF="http://www.avast.com">http://www.avast.com</A> </PRE>  <HR> <UL>  <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="000215.html">[SC-04-08] X215 comments due in one week </A></li> <LI>Next message: <A HREF="000283.html">[SC-04-08] X215 comments due in one week </A></li> <LI> Messages sorted by: <a href="date.html#282">[ date ]</a> <a href="thread.html#282">[ thread ]</a> <a href="subject.html#282">[ subject ]</a> <a href="author.html#282">[ author ]</a> </LI> </UL> <hr> <a href="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">More information about the SC-04-08 mailing list</a> 

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<TITLE> [SC-04-08] Advance information </TITLE> pre { white-space: pre-wrap; /* css-2.1, curent FF, Opera, Safari */ } <H1>[SC-04-08] Advance information</H1> John Woodgate <A HREF="mailto:sc-04-08%40standards.aes.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BSC-04-08%5D%20Advance%20information&In-Reply-To=%3C4hUfFhnNXnYUFw%24f%40jmwa.demon.co.uk%3E" TITLE="[SC-04-08] Advance information">jmw at jmwa.demon.co.uk </A> Tue Nov 11 13:47:09 MST 2014 <UL> <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="000278.html">[SC-04-08] AES-X219 Clarifications </A></li> <LI>Next message: <A HREF="000284.html">[SC-04-08] Review of Document NT ACOU 108 'Nordtest Method' </A></li> <LI> Messages sorted by: <a href="date.html#281">[ date ]</a> <a href="thread.html#281">[ thread ]</a> <a href="subject.html#281">[ subject ]</a> <a href="author.html#281">[ author ]</a> </LI> </UL> <HR>  <PRE>Auditorium Acoustics, 29-31 October 2015, Paris The IOA’s highly successful series of Auditorium Acoustics meetings continues with this meeting which is being organised with support from the French Acoustical Society (SFA). A call for papers has been issued – abstracts should be sent to <A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">linda.canty at ioa.org.uk</A> by 9 December. For full details go to <A HREF="http://goo.gl/hstQmd">http://goo.gl/hstQmd</A> -- OOO - Own Opinions Only. With best wishes. See www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Quid faciamus nisi sit? John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK </PRE>  <HR> <UL>  <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="000278.html">[SC-04-08] AES-X219 Clarifications </A></li> <LI>Next message: <A HREF="000284.html">[SC-04-08] Review of Document NT ACOU 108 'Nordtest Method' </A></li> <LI> Messages sorted by: <a href="date.html#281">[ date ]</a> <a href="thread.html#281">[ thread ]</a> <a href="subject.html#281">[ subject ]</a> <a href="author.html#281">[ author ]</a> </LI> </UL> <hr> <a href="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">More information about the SC-04-08 mailing list</a> 

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<TITLE> [SC-04-08] X215 comments due in one week </TITLE> pre { white-space: pre-wrap; /* css-2.1, curent FF, Opera, Safari */ } <H1>[SC-04-08] X215 comments due in one week</H1> John Woodgate <A HREF="mailto:sc-04-08%40standards.aes.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BSC-04-08%5D%20X215%20comments%20due%20in%20one%20week&In-Reply-To=%3CXaukrPLnz3YUFw4D%40jmwa.demon.co.uk%3E" TITLE="[SC-04-08] X215 comments due in one week">jmw at jmwa.demon.co.uk </A> Wed Nov 12 08:29:43 MST 2014 <UL> <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="000282.html">[SC-04-08] X215 comments due in one week </A></li> <LI>Next message: <A HREF="000219.html">[SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration"; mark yonge </A></li> <LI> Messages sorted by: <a href="date.html#283">[ date ]</a> <a href="thread.html#283">[ thread ]</a> <a href="subject.html#283">[ subject ]</a> <a href="author.html#283">[ author ]</a> </LI> </UL> <HR>  <PRE>In message <000e01cff4ea$b4d164a0$1e742de0$@acousticdirections.com>, dated Fri, 31 Oct 2014, Glenn Leembruggen <<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">glenn at acousticdirections.com</A>> writes: >Attached is a Word doc with my preliminary comments and some editorial >changes. You can't attach anything on this mailing list. Please upload your document to the SC-04-08 web page. -- OOO - Own Opinions Only. With best wishes. See www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Quid faciamus nisi sit? John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK </PRE>  <HR> <UL>  <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="000282.html">[SC-04-08] X215 comments due in one week </A></li> <LI>Next message: <A HREF="000219.html">[SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration"; mark yonge </A></li> <LI> Messages sorted by: <a href="date.html#283">[ date ]</a> <a href="thread.html#283">[ thread ]</a> <a href="subject.html#283">[ subject ]</a> <a href="author.html#283">[ author ]</a> </LI> </UL> <hr> <a href="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">More information about the SC-04-08 mailing list</a> 

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<TITLE> [SC-04-08] Review of Document NT ACOU 108 'Nordtest Method' </TITLE> pre { white-space: pre-wrap; /* css-2.1, curent FF, Opera, Safari */ } <H1>[SC-04-08] Review of Document NT ACOU 108 'Nordtest Method'</H1> John Woodgate <A HREF="mailto:sc-04-08%40standards.aes.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BSC-04-08%5D%20Review%20of%20Document%20NT%20ACOU%20108%20%27Nordtest%20Method%27&In-Reply-To=%3CGO3g%2Bx2G98ZUFwDt%40jmwa.demon.co.uk%3E" TITLE="[SC-04-08] Review of Document NT ACOU 108 'Nordtest Method'">jmw at jmwa.demon.co.uk </A> Sat Nov 15 15:10:14 MST 2014 <UL> <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="000281.html">[SC-04-08] Advance information </A></li> <LI>Next message: <A HREF="000285.html">[SC-04-08] Review of Document NT ACOU 108 'Nordtest Method' </A></li> <LI> Messages sorted by: <a href="date.html#284">[ date ]</a> <a href="thread.html#284">[ thread ]</a> <a href="subject.html#284">[ subject ]</a> <a href="author.html#284">[ author ]</a> </LI> </UL> <HR>  <PRE> This document is a perfectly reasonable standard, although not in quite the same format as an AES standard. However, it was issued in 2001, and it seems that a number of SC-04-08 members want a fully up-to-the-minute document, embracing the latest thinking and instrumentation. I don't think NT ACOU 108 is suitable as a first working draft for such a project. It would be cleaner to start with a blank AESSC template, and look at NT ACOU 108 and many other documents as useful sources of texts to adopt or adapt. -- OOO - Own Opinions Only. With best wishes. See www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Quid faciamus nisi sit? John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK </PRE>  <HR> <UL>  <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="000281.html">[SC-04-08] Advance information </A></li> <LI>Next message: <A HREF="000285.html">[SC-04-08] Review of Document NT ACOU 108 'Nordtest Method' </A></li> <LI> Messages sorted by: <a href="date.html#284">[ date ]</a> <a href="thread.html#284">[ thread ]</a> <a href="subject.html#284">[ subject ]</a> <a href="author.html#284">[ author ]</a> </LI> </UL> <hr> <a href="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">More information about the SC-04-08 mailing list</a> 

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<TITLE> [SC-04-08] Review of Document NT ACOU 108 'Nordtest Method' </TITLE> pre { white-space: pre-wrap; /* css-2.1, curent FF, Opera, Safari */ } <H1>[SC-04-08] Review of Document NT ACOU 108 'Nordtest Method'</H1> John Woodgate <A HREF="mailto:sc-04-08%40standards.aes.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BSC-04-08%5D%20Review%20of%20Document%20NT%20ACOU%20108%20%27Nordtest%20Method%27&In-Reply-To=%3CrsmLm53AC%2BZUFwEG%40jmwa.demon.co.uk%3E" TITLE="[SC-04-08] Review of Document NT ACOU 108 'Nordtest Method'">jmw at jmwa.demon.co.uk </A> Sat Nov 15 16:23:44 MST 2014 <UL> <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="000285.html">[SC-04-08] Review of Document NT ACOU 108 'Nordtest Method' </A></li> <LI> Messages sorted by: <a href="date.html#286">[ date ]</a> <a href="thread.html#286">[ thread ]</a> <a href="subject.html#286">[ subject ]</a> <a href="author.html#286">[ author ]</a> </LI> </UL> <HR>  <PRE>In message <<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">1416092315.11225.YahooMailNeo at web185005.mail.gq1.yahoo.com</A>>, dated Sat, 15 Nov 2014, Floyd Toole <<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">soundnwine at sbcglobal.net</A>> writes: >A few of us have had a look at this and agree that it is not useful. >Frankly, I thought it had gone away. SC-04-08 members were asked to comment on it, so I did. -- OOO - Own Opinions Only. With best wishes. See www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Quid faciamus nisi sit? John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK </PRE>  <HR> <UL>  <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="000285.html">[SC-04-08] Review of Document NT ACOU 108 'Nordtest Method' </A></li> <LI> Messages sorted by: <a href="date.html#286">[ date ]</a> <a href="thread.html#286">[ thread ]</a> <a href="subject.html#286">[ subject ]</a> <a href="author.html#286">[ author ]</a> </LI> </UL> <hr> <a href="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">More information about the SC-04-08 mailing list</a> 

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<TITLE> [SC-04-08] Review of Document NT ACOU 108 'Nordtest Method' </TITLE> pre { white-space: pre-wrap; /* css-2.1, curent FF, Opera, Safari */ } <H1>[SC-04-08] Review of Document NT ACOU 108 'Nordtest Method'</H1> Floyd Toole <A HREF="mailto:sc-04-08%40standards.aes.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BSC-04-08%5D%20Review%20of%20Document%20NT%20ACOU%20108%20%27Nordtest%20Method%27&In-Reply-To=%3C1416092315.11225.YahooMailNeo%40web185005.mail.gq1.yahoo.com%3E" TITLE="[SC-04-08] Review of Document NT ACOU 108 'Nordtest Method'">soundnwine at sbcglobal.net </A> Sat Nov 15 15:58:35 MST 2014 <UL> <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="000284.html">[SC-04-08] Review of Document NT ACOU 108 'Nordtest Method' </A></li> <LI>Next message: <A HREF="000286.html">[SC-04-08] Review of Document NT ACOU 108 'Nordtest Method' </A></li> <LI> Messages sorted by: <a href="date.html#285">[ date ]</a> <a href="thread.html#285">[ thread ]</a> <a href="subject.html#285">[ subject ]</a> <a href="author.html#285">[ author ]</a> </LI> </UL> <HR>  <PRE>John, A few of us have had a look at this and agree that it is not useful. Frankly, I thought it had gone away. The measurement premises are very close to those of SMPTE ST202 (excepting the x-curve) which has been significantly discredited by the recent SMPTE report, and by other data, all from reliable sources. These are not the measurements we need to make. Cheers, Floyd On Saturday, November 15, 2014 2:15 PM, John Woodgate <<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">jmw at jmwa.demon.co.uk</A>> wrote: This document is a perfectly reasonable standard, although not in quite the same format as an AES standard. However, it was issued in 2001, and it seems that a number of SC-04-08 members want a fully up-to-the-minute document, embracing the latest thinking and instrumentation. I don't think NT ACOU 108 is suitable as a first working draft for such a project. It would be cleaner to start with a blank AESSC template, and look at NT ACOU 108 and many other documents as useful sources of texts to adopt or adapt. -- OOO - Own Opinions Only. With best wishes. See www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Quid faciamus nisi sit? John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK _______________________________________________ SC-04-08 mailing list <A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">SC-04-08 at standards.aes.org</A> <<A HREF="http://standards.aes.org/sc.cfm?ID=91">http://standards.aes.org/sc.cfm?ID=91</A>> </PRE>  <HR> <UL>  <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="000284.html">[SC-04-08] Review of Document NT ACOU 108 'Nordtest Method' </A></li> <LI>Next message: <A HREF="000286.html">[SC-04-08] Review of Document NT ACOU 108 'Nordtest Method' </A></li> <LI> Messages sorted by: <a href="date.html#285">[ date ]</a> <a href="thread.html#285">[ thread ]</a> <a href="subject.html#285">[ subject ]</a> <a href="author.html#285">[ author ]</a> </LI> </UL> <hr> <a href="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">More information about the SC-04-08 mailing list</a> 

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<title>The SC-04-08 2014 Archive by date</title> <a name="start"></A> <h1>2014 Archives by date</h1> <ul> <li> Messages sorted by: <a href="thread.html#start">[ thread ]</a> <a href="subject.html#start">[ subject ]</a> <a href="author.html#start">[ author ]</a> <li><a href="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">More info on this list... </a></li> </ul> Starting: Wed Jan 15 07:42:45 MST 2014 Ending: Sat Nov 15 16:23:44 MST 2014 Messages: 136 <ul> <LI><A HREF="000151.html">[SC-04-08] WG meeting report New York 2013-10 </A><A NAME="151"> </A> Ben Kok <LI><A HREF="000152.html">[SC-04-08] WG meeting report New York 2013-10 </A><A NAME="152"> </A> Andreas Silzle <LI><A HREF="000153.html">[SC-04-08] WG meeting report New York 2013-10 </A><A NAME="153"> </A> John Woodgate <LI><A HREF="000154.html">[SC-04-08] WG meeting report New York 2013-10, MLS </A><A NAME="154"> </A> Andreas Silzle <LI><A HREF="000158.html">[SC-04-08] WG meeting report New York 2013-10, MLS </A><A NAME="158"> </A> Thomas Lagö <LI><A HREF="000155.html">[SC-04-08] WG meeting report New York 2013-10, MLS </A><A NAME="155"> </A> Smithers, Michael <LI><A HREF="000156.html">[SC-04-08] WG meeting report New York 2013-10, MLS </A><A NAME="156"> </A> John Woodgate <LI><A HREF="000159.html">[SC-04-08] WG meeting report New York 2013-10, MLS </A><A NAME="159"> </A> Thomas Lagö <LI><A HREF="000157.html">[SC-04-08] WG meeting report New York 2013-10, MLS </A><A NAME="157"> </A> David Josephson <LI><A HREF="000160.html">[SC-04-08] WG meeting report New York 2013-10, MLS </A><A NAME="160"> </A> Smithers, Michael <LI><A HREF="000161.html">[SC-04-08] WG meeting report New York 2013-10, MLS </A><A NAME="161"> </A> David Josephson <LI><A HREF="000162.html">[SC-04-08] WG meeting report New York 2013-10, MLS </A><A NAME="162"> </A> John Woodgate <LI><A HREF="000163.html">[SC-04-08] WG meeting report New York 2013-10, MLS </A><A NAME="163"> </A> philip newell <LI><A HREF="000164.html">[SC-04-08] WG meeting report New York 2013-10, MLS </A><A NAME="164"> </A> John Woodgate <LI><A HREF="000165.html">[SC-04-08] Uploads </A><A NAME="165"> </A> Pete Soper <LI><A HREF="000166.html">[SC-04-08] GoToMeeting Invitation - AES SC-04-08, Berlin </A><A NAME="166"> </A> Mark Yonge <LI><A HREF="000167.html">[SC-04-08] GoToMeeting Invitation - AES SC-04-08, Berlin </A><A NAME="167"> </A> Thomas Lagö <LI><A HREF="000168.html">[SC-04-08] Noise signal samples: AES-X216 </A><A NAME="168"> </A> John Woodgate <LI><A HREF="000169.html">[SC-04-08] GoToMeeting Invitation - AES SC-04-08, Berlin </A><A NAME="169"> </A> Glenn Leembruggen <LI><A HREF="000170.html">[SC-04-08] GoToMeeting Invitation - AES SC-04-08, Berlin </A><A NAME="170"> </A> Bob Walker <LI><A HREF="000171.html">[SC-04-08] GoToMeeting Invitation - AES SC-04-08, Berlin </A><A NAME="171"> </A> philip newell <LI><A HREF="000172.html">[SC-04-08] x216 - MLS properties </A><A NAME="172"> </A> Mark Yonge <LI><A HREF="000173.html">[SC-04-08] x216 - MLS properties </A><A NAME="173"> </A> John Woodgate <LI><A HREF="000174.html">[SC-04-08] AES-X216 Pink noise </A><A NAME="174"> </A> Pete Soper <LI><A HREF="000175.html">[SC-04-08] AES-X216 Pink noise </A><A NAME="175"> </A> John Woodgate <LI><A HREF="000176.html">[SC-04-08] AES-X216 Pink noise </A><A NAME="176"> </A> david murphy <LI><A HREF="000177.html">[SC-04-08] Report of the Berlin meeting, 2014-04-27 </A><A NAME="177"> </A> Mark Yonge <LI><A HREF="000178.html">[SC-04-08] Report of the Berlin meeting, 2014-04-27 </A><A NAME="178"> </A> Thomas Lagö <LI><A HREF="000179.html">[SC-04-08] Assessment of white and pink noise signals </A><A NAME="179"> </A> John Woodgate <LI><A HREF="000180.html">[SC-04-08] AES 137 In Los Angeles Fast Approaching </A><A NAME="180"> </A> Brian McCarty (RS) <LI><A HREF="000181.html">[SC-04-08] Revision of ITU-R BS.1116-2 </A><A NAME="181"> </A> Mark Yonge <LI><A HREF="000182.html">[SC-04-08] Revision of ITU-R BS.1116-2 </A><A NAME="182"> </A> John Woodgate <LI><A HREF="000183.html">[SC-04-08] Revision of ITU-R BS.1116-2 </A><A NAME="183"> </A> philip newell <LI><A HREF="000184.html">[SC-04-08] Revision of ITU-R BS.1116-2 </A><A NAME="184"> </A> John Woodgate <LI><A HREF="000185.html">[SC-04-08] Revision of ITU-R BS.1116-2 </A><A NAME="185"> </A> philip newell <LI><A HREF="000186.html">[SC-04-08] Revision of ITU-R BS.1116-2 </A><A NAME="186"> </A> John Woodgate <LI><A HREF="000187.html">[SC-04-08] Liaison form SMPTE to AES </A><A NAME="187"> </A> AES Standards <LI><A HREF="000188.html">[SC-04-08] Liaison from SMPTE to AES re Modern Theatre Calibration </A><A NAME="188"> </A> AES Standards <LI><A HREF="000189.html">[SC-04-08] Liaison from SMPTE to AES re Pink Noise </A><A NAME="189"> </A> AES Standards <LI><A HREF="000190.html">[SC-04-08] SMPTE B-CHAIN REPORT NOW AVAILABLE </A><A NAME="190"> </A> Brian McCarty <LI><A HREF="000191.html">[SC-04-08] GoToMeeting Info </A><A NAME="191"> </A> Bruce C. 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<title>The SC-04-08 2014 Archive by author</title> <a name="start"></A> <h1>2014 Archives by author</h1> <ul> <li> Messages sorted by: <a href="thread.html#start">[ thread ]</a> <a href="subject.html#start">[ subject ]</a> <a href="date.html#start">[ date ]</a> <li><a href="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">More info on this list... </a></li> </ul> Starting: Wed Jan 15 07:42:45 MST 2014 Ending: Sat Nov 15 16:23:44 MST 2014 Messages: 136 <ul> <LI><A HREF="000180.html">[SC-04-08] AES 137 In Los Angeles Fast Approaching </A><A NAME="180"> </A> Brian McCarty (RS) <LI><A HREF="000275.html">[SC-04-08] AES-X219 Clarifications </A><A NAME="275"> </A> Bharitkar, Sunil <LI><A HREF="000267.html">[SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration" </A><A NAME="267"> </A> Kurt Graffy <LI><A HREF="000157.html">[SC-04-08] WG meeting report New York 2013-10, MLS </A><A NAME="157"> </A> David Josephson <LI><A HREF="000161.html">[SC-04-08] WG meeting report New York 2013-10, MLS </A><A NAME="161"> </A> David Josephson <LI><A HREF="000214.html">[SC-04-08] X215 comments due in one week </A><A NAME="214"> </A> David Josephson <LI><A HREF="000217.html">[SC-04-08] x215 comments required re SMPTE Modern Theatre Calibration draft </A><A NAME="217"> </A> David Josephson <LI><A HREF="000226.html">[SC-04-08] Comments on X215 </A><A NAME="226"> </A> David Josephson <LI><A HREF="000233.html">[SC-04-08] X215 comments re microphones </A><A NAME="233"> </A> David Josephson <LI><A HREF="000237.html">[SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration" </A><A NAME="237"> </A> David Josephson <LI><A HREF="000245.html">[SC-04-08] Document attach/upload </A><A NAME="245"> </A> David Josephson <LI><A HREF="000247.html">[SC-04-08] X215 Point of order </A><A NAME="247"> </A> David Josephson <LI><A HREF="000258.html">[SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration" </A><A NAME="258"> </A> David Josephson <LI><A HREF="000266.html">[SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration" </A><A NAME="266"> </A> David Josephson <LI><A HREF="000271.html">[SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration" </A><A NAME="271"> </A> David Josephson <LI><A HREF="000274.html">[SC-04-08] AES-X219 Clarifications </A><A NAME="274"> </A> David Josephson <LI><A HREF="000279.html">[SC-04-08] AES-X219 Clarifications </A><A NAME="279"> </A> David Josephson <LI><A HREF="000151.html">[SC-04-08] WG meeting report New York 2013-10 </A><A NAME="151"> </A> Ben Kok <LI><A HREF="000158.html">[SC-04-08] WG meeting report New York 2013-10, MLS </A><A NAME="158"> </A> Thomas Lagö <LI><A HREF="000159.html">[SC-04-08] WG meeting report New York 2013-10, MLS </A><A NAME="159"> </A> Thomas Lagö <LI><A HREF="000167.html">[SC-04-08] GoToMeeting Invitation - AES SC-04-08, Berlin </A><A NAME="167"> </A> Thomas Lagö <LI><A HREF="000178.html">[SC-04-08] Report of the Berlin meeting, 2014-04-27 </A><A NAME="178"> </A> Thomas Lagö <LI><A HREF="000193.html">[SC-04-08] GoToMeeting Info </A><A NAME="193"> </A> Thomas Lagö <LI><A HREF="000262.html">[SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration" </A><A NAME="262"> </A> Thomas Lagö <LI><A HREF="000264.html">[SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration" </A><A NAME="264"> </A> Thomas Lagö <LI><A HREF="000169.html">[SC-04-08] GoToMeeting Invitation - AES SC-04-08, Berlin </A><A NAME="169"> </A> Glenn Leembruggen <LI><A HREF="000196.html">[SC-04-08] GoToMeeting Info </A><A NAME="196"> </A> Glenn Leembruggen <LI><A HREF="000227.html">[SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration"; mark yonge </A><A NAME="227"> </A> Glenn Leembruggen <LI><A HREF="000228.html">[SC-04-08] X215 comments re microphones </A><A NAME="228"> </A> Glenn Leembruggen <LI><A HREF="000282.html">[SC-04-08] X215 comments due in one week </A><A NAME="282"> </A> Glenn Leembruggen <LI><A HREF="000234.html">[SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration"; mark yonge </A><A NAME="234"> </A> Glenn Leembruggen <LI><A HREF="000202.html">[SC-04-08] Liaison from SMPTE to AES re Modern Theatre Calibration </A><A NAME="202"> </A> Brian Long <LI><A HREF="000208.html">[SC-04-08] X215 Introduction </A><A NAME="208"> </A> Brian Long <LI><A HREF="000213.html">[SC-04-08] X215 comments due in one week </A><A NAME="213"> </A> Brian Long <LI><A HREF="000215.html">[SC-04-08] X215 comments due in one week </A><A NAME="215"> </A> Brian Long <LI><A HREF="000220.html">[SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration"; mark yonge </A><A NAME="220"> </A> Brian Long <LI><A HREF="000222.html">[SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration"; mark yonge </A><A NAME="222"> </A> Brian Long <LI><A HREF="000238.html">[SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration" </A><A NAME="238"> </A> Brian Long <LI><A HREF="000242.html">[SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration" </A><A NAME="242"> </A> Brian Long <LI><A HREF="000259.html">[SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration" </A><A NAME="259"> </A> Brian Long <LI><A HREF="000263.html">[SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration" </A><A NAME="263"> </A> Peter Mapp <LI><A HREF="000190.html">[SC-04-08] SMPTE B-CHAIN REPORT NOW AVAILABLE </A><A NAME="190"> </A> Brian McCarty <LI><A HREF="000197.html">[SC-04-08] GoToMeeting Info </A><A NAME="197"> </A> Brian McCarty <LI><A HREF="000200.html">[SC-04-08] Liaison from SMPTE to AES re Modern Theatre Calibration </A><A NAME="200"> </A> Brian McCarty <LI><A HREF="000221.html">[SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration"; mark yonge </A><A NAME="221"> </A> Brian McCarty <LI><A HREF="000241.html">[SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration" </A><A NAME="241"> </A> Brian McCarty <LI><A HREF="000244.html">[SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration" </A><A NAME="244"> </A> Brian McCarty <LI><A HREF="000198.html">[SC-04-08] Liaison from SMPTE to AES re Modern Theatre Calibration </A><A NAME="198"> </A> Jean-Luc Ohl <LI><A HREF="000201.html">[SC-04-08] Liaison from SMPTE to AES re Modern Theatre Calibration </A><A NAME="201"> </A> Jean-Luc Ohl <LI><A HREF="000204.html">[SC-04-08] Liaison from SMPTE to AES re Modern Theatre Calibration </A><A NAME="204"> </A> Jean-Luc Ohl <LI><A HREF="000191.html">[SC-04-08] GoToMeeting Info </A><A NAME="191"> </A> Bruce C. Olson <LI><A HREF="000195.html">[SC-04-08] GoToMeeting Info </A><A NAME="195"> </A> Bruce C. Olson <LI><A HREF="000254.html">[SC-04-08] Guides to standards development </A><A NAME="254"> </A> Bruce C. Olson <LI><A HREF="000273.html">[SC-04-08] AES-X219 Clarifications </A><A NAME="273"> </A> Bruce C. Olson <LI><A HREF="000192.html">[SC-04-08] GoToMeeting Info </A><A NAME="192"> </A> Frederick C. Schafer <LI><A HREF="000152.html">[SC-04-08] WG meeting report New York 2013-10 </A><A NAME="152"> </A> Andreas Silzle <LI><A HREF="000154.html">[SC-04-08] WG meeting report New York 2013-10, MLS </A><A NAME="154"> </A> Andreas Silzle <LI><A HREF="000155.html">[SC-04-08] WG meeting report New York 2013-10, MLS </A><A NAME="155"> </A> Smithers, Michael <LI><A HREF="000160.html">[SC-04-08] WG meeting report New York 2013-10, MLS </A><A NAME="160"> </A> Smithers, Michael <LI><A HREF="000165.html">[SC-04-08] Uploads </A><A NAME="165"> </A> Pete Soper <LI><A HREF="000174.html">[SC-04-08] AES-X216 Pink noise </A><A NAME="174"> </A> Pete Soper <LI><A HREF="000205.html">[SC-04-08] x216 draft document for comments/review </A><A NAME="205"> </A> Pete Soper <LI><A HREF="000240.html">[SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration" </A><A NAME="240"> </A> Pete Soper <LI><A HREF="000187.html">[SC-04-08] Liaison form SMPTE to AES </A><A NAME="187"> </A> AES Standards <LI><A HREF="000188.html">[SC-04-08] Liaison from SMPTE to AES re Modern Theatre Calibration </A><A NAME="188"> </A> AES Standards <LI><A HREF="000189.html">[SC-04-08] Liaison from SMPTE to AES re Pink Noise </A><A NAME="189"> </A> AES Standards <LI><A HREF="000216.html">[SC-04-08] x215 comments required re SMPTE Modern Theatre Calibration draft </A><A NAME="216"> </A> AES Standards <LI><A HREF="000285.html">[SC-04-08] Review of Document NT ACOU 108 'Nordtest Method' </A><A NAME="285"> </A> Floyd Toole <LI><A HREF="000210.html">[SC-04-08] [Liaisons] Liaison from SMPTE to AES re Modern Theatre Calibration </A><A NAME="210"> </A> Vessa, Brian <LI><A HREF="000218.html">[SC-04-08] x215 and x216 comments required re SMPTE Modern Theatre Calibration draft and Digital Pink Noise signal </A><A NAME="218"> </A> Vessa, Br...

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<title>The SC-04-08 2014 Archive by thread</title> <a name="start"></A> <h1>2014 Archives by thread</h1> <ul> <li> Messages sorted by: <a href="subject.html#start">[ subject ]</a> <a href="author.html#start">[ author ]</a> <a href="date.html#start">[ date ]</a> <li><a href="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">More info on this list... </a></li> </ul> Starting: Wed Jan 15 07:42:45 MST 2014 Ending: Sat Nov 15 16:23:44 MST 2014 Messages: 136 <ul>  <LI><A HREF="000151.html">[SC-04-08] WG meeting report New York 2013-10 </A><A NAME="151"> </A> Ben Kok <UL>  <LI><A HREF="000152.html">[SC-04-08] WG meeting report New York 2013-10 </A><A NAME="152"> </A> Andreas Silzle <UL>  <LI><A HREF="000153.html">[SC-04-08] WG meeting report New York 2013-10 </A><A NAME="153"> </A> John Woodgate <UL>  <LI><A HREF="000154.html">[SC-04-08] WG meeting report New York 2013-10, MLS </A><A NAME="154"> </A> Andreas Silzle  <LI><A HREF="000158.html">[SC-04-08] WG meeting report New York 2013-10, MLS </A><A NAME="158"> </A> Thomas Lagö  <LI><A HREF="000155.html">[SC-04-08] WG meeting report New York 2013-10, MLS </A><A NAME="155"> </A> Smithers, Michael  <LI><A HREF="000156.html">[SC-04-08] WG meeting report New York 2013-10, MLS </A><A NAME="156"> </A> John Woodgate  <LI><A HREF="000159.html">[SC-04-08] WG meeting report New York 2013-10, MLS </A><A NAME="159"> </A> Thomas Lagö  <LI><A HREF="000160.html">[SC-04-08] WG meeting report New York 2013-10, MLS </A><A NAME="160"> </A> Smithers, Michael  <LI><A HREF="000161.html">[SC-04-08] WG meeting report New York 2013-10, MLS </A><A NAME="161"> </A> David Josephson  <LI><A HREF="000162.html">[SC-04-08] WG meeting report New York 2013-10, MLS </A><A NAME="162"> </A> John Woodgate  <LI><A HREF="000163.html">[SC-04-08] WG meeting report New York 2013-10, MLS </A><A NAME="163"> </A> philip newell  <LI><A HREF="000164.html">[SC-04-08] WG meeting report New York 2013-10, MLS </A><A NAME="164"> </A> John Woodgate  <LI><A HREF="000157.html">[SC-04-08] WG meeting report New York 2013-10, MLS </A><A NAME="157"> </A> David Josephson </UL> </UL> </UL>  <LI><A HREF="000165.html">[SC-04-08] Uploads </A><A NAME="165"> </A> Pete Soper  <LI><A HREF="000166.html">[SC-04-08] GoToMeeting Invitation - AES SC-04-08, Berlin </A><A NAME="166"> </A> Mark Yonge <UL>  <LI><A HREF="000167.html">[SC-04-08] GoToMeeting Invitation - AES SC-04-08, Berlin </A><A NAME="167"> </A> Thomas Lagö  <LI><A HREF="000169.html">[SC-04-08] GoToMeeting Invitation - AES SC-04-08, Berlin </A><A NAME="169"> </A> Glenn Leembruggen  <LI><A HREF="000170.html">[SC-04-08] GoToMeeting Invitation - AES SC-04-08, Berlin </A><A NAME="170"> </A> Bob Walker <UL>  <LI><A HREF="000171.html">[SC-04-08] GoToMeeting Invitation - AES SC-04-08, Berlin </A><A NAME="171"> </A> philip newell </UL> </UL>  <LI><A HREF="000168.html">[SC-04-08] Noise signal samples: AES-X216 </A><A NAME="168"> </A> John Woodgate  <LI><A HREF="000172.html">[SC-04-08] x216 - MLS properties </A><A NAME="172"> </A> Mark Yonge <UL>  <LI><A HREF="000173.html">[SC-04-08] x216 - MLS properties </A><A NAME="173"> </A> John Woodgate </UL>  <LI><A HREF="000174.html">[SC-04-08] AES-X216 Pink noise </A><A NAME="174"> </A> Pete Soper <UL>  <LI><A HREF="000175.html">[SC-04-08] AES-X216 Pink noise </A><A NAME="175"> </A> John Woodgate <UL>  <LI><A HREF="000176.html">[SC-04-08] AES-X216 Pink noise </A><A NAME="176"> </A> david murphy </UL> </UL>  <LI><A HREF="000177.html">[SC-04-08] Report of the Berlin meeting, 2014-04-27 </A><A NAME="177"> </A> Mark Yonge <UL>  <LI><A HREF="000178.html">[SC-04-08] Report of the Berlin meeting, 2014-04-27 </A><A NAME="178"> </A> Thomas Lagö </UL>  <LI><A HREF="000179.html">[SC-04-08] Assessment of white and pink noise signals </A><A NAME="179"> </A> John Woodgate  <LI><A HREF="000180.html">[SC-04-08] AES 137 In Los Angeles Fast Approaching </A><A NAME="180"> </A> Brian McCarty (RS)  <LI><A HREF="000181.html">[SC-04-08] Revision of ITU-R BS.1116-2 </A><A NAME="181"> </A> Mark Yonge <UL>  <LI><A HREF="000182.html">[SC-04-08] Revision of ITU-R BS.1116-2 </A><A NAME="182"> </A> John Woodgate  <LI><A HREF="000183.html">[SC-04-08] Revision of ITU-R BS.1116-2 </A><A NAME="183"> </A> philip newell <UL>  <LI><A HREF="000184.html">[SC-04-08] Revision of ITU-R BS.1116-2 </A><A NAME="184"> </A> John Woodgate <UL>  <LI><A HREF="000185.html">[SC-04-08] Revision of ITU-R BS.1116-2 </A><A NAME="185"> </A> philip newell  <LI><A HREF="000186.html">[SC-04-08] Revision of ITU-R BS.1116-2 </A><A NAME="186"> </A> John Woodgate </UL> </UL> </UL>  <LI><A HREF="000187.html">[SC-04-08] Liaison form SMPTE to AES </A><A NAME="187"> </A> AES Standards  <LI><A HREF="000188.html">[SC-04-08] Liaison from SMPTE to AES re Modern Theatre Calibration </A><A NAME="188"> </A> AES Standards <UL>  <LI><A HREF="000198.html">[SC-04-08] Liaison from SMPTE to AES re Modern Theatre Calibration </A><A NAME="198"> </A> Jean-Luc Ohl <UL>  <LI><A HREF="000199.html">[SC-04-08] Liaison from SMPTE to AES re Modern Theatre Calibration </A><A NAME="199"> </A> philip newell <UL>  <LI><A HREF="000200.html">[SC-04-08] Liaison from SMPTE to AES re Modern Theatre Calibration </A><A NAME="200"> </A> Brian McCarty  <LI><A HREF="000201.html">[SC-04-08] Liaison from SMPTE to AES re Modern Theatre Calibration </A><A NAME="201"> </A> Jean-Luc Ohl  <LI><A HREF="000202.html">[SC-04-08] Liaison from SMPTE to AES re Modern Theatre Calibration </A><A NAME="202"> </A> Brian Long  <LI><A HREF="000203.html">[SC-04-08] Liaison from SMPTE to AES re Modern Theatre Calibration </A><A NAME="203"> </A> philip newell  <LI><A HREF="000204.html">[SC-04-08] Liaison from SMPTE to AES re Modern Theatre Calibration </A><A NAME="204"> </A> Jean-Luc Ohl  <LI><A HREF="000209.html">[SC-04-08] [Liaisons] Liaison from SMPTE to AES re Modern Theatre Calibration </A><A NAME="209"> </A> philip newell  <LI><A HREF="000210.html"...

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<title>The SC-04-08 2014 Archive by subject</title> <a name="start"></A> <h1>2014 Archives by subject</h1> <ul> <li> Messages sorted by: <a href="thread.html#start">[ thread ]</a> <a href="author.html#start">[ author ]</a> <a href="date.html#start">[ date ]</a> <li><a href="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">More info on this list... </a></li> </ul> Starting: Wed Jan 15 07:42:45 MST 2014 Ending: Sat Nov 15 16:23:44 MST 2014 Messages: 136 <ul> <LI><A HREF="000209.html">[SC-04-08] [Liaisons] Liaison from SMPTE to AES re Modern Theatre Calibration </A><A NAME="209"> </A> philip newell <LI><A HREF="000210.html">[SC-04-08] [Liaisons] Liaison from SMPTE to AES re Modern Theatre Calibration </A><A NAME="210"> </A> Vessa, Brian <LI><A HREF="000211.html">[SC-04-08] [Liaisons] Liaison from SMPTE to AES re Modern Theatre Calibration </A><A NAME="211"> </A> John Woodgate <LI><A HREF="000281.html">[SC-04-08] Advance information </A><A NAME="281"> </A> John Woodgate <LI><A HREF="000174.html">[SC-04-08] AES-X216 Pink noise </A><A NAME="174"> </A> Pete Soper <LI><A HREF="000175.html">[SC-04-08] AES-X216 Pink noise </A><A NAME="175"> </A> John Woodgate <LI><A HREF="000176.html">[SC-04-08] AES-X216 Pink noise </A><A NAME="176"> </A> david murphy <LI><A HREF="000273.html">[SC-04-08] AES-X219 Clarifications </A><A NAME="273"> </A> Bruce C. Olson <LI><A HREF="000274.html">[SC-04-08] AES-X219 Clarifications </A><A NAME="274"> </A> David Josephson <LI><A HREF="000275.html">[SC-04-08] AES-X219 Clarifications </A><A NAME="275"> </A> Bharitkar, Sunil <LI><A HREF="000276.html">[SC-04-08] AES-X219 Clarifications </A><A NAME="276"> </A> John Woodgate <LI><A HREF="000277.html">[SC-04-08] AES-X219 Clarifications </A><A NAME="277"> </A> John Woodgate <LI><A HREF="000278.html">[SC-04-08] AES-X219 Clarifications </A><A NAME="278"> </A> John Woodgate <LI><A HREF="000279.html">[SC-04-08] AES-X219 Clarifications </A><A NAME="279"> </A> David Josephson <LI><A HREF="000280.html">[SC-04-08] AES-X219 Clarifications </A><A NAME="280"> </A> John Woodgate <LI><A HREF="000180.html">[SC-04-08] AES 137 In Los Angeles Fast Approaching </A><A NAME="180"> </A> Brian McCarty (RS) <LI><A HREF="000179.html">[SC-04-08] Assessment of white and pink noise signals </A><A NAME="179"> </A> John Woodgate <LI><A HREF="000235.html">[SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration" </A><A NAME="235"> </A> markyonge <LI><A HREF="000236.html">[SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration" </A><A NAME="236"> </A> John Woodgate <LI><A HREF="000237.html">[SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration" </A><A NAME="237"> </A> David Josephson <LI><A HREF="000238.html">[SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration" </A><A NAME="238"> </A> Brian Long <LI><A HREF="000239.html">[SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration" </A><A NAME="239"> </A> philip newell <LI><A HREF="000240.html">[SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration" </A><A NAME="240"> </A> Pete Soper <LI><A HREF="000241.html">[SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration" </A><A NAME="241"> </A> Brian McCarty <LI><A HREF="000242.html">[SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration" </A><A NAME="242"> </A> Brian Long <LI><A HREF="000243.html">[SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration" </A><A NAME="243"> </A> philip newell <LI><A HREF="000244.html">[SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration" </A><A NAME="244"> </A> Brian McCarty <LI><A HREF="000246.html">[SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration" </A><A NAME="246"> </A> philip newell <LI><A HREF="000248.html">[SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration" </A><A NAME="248"> </A> John Woodgate <LI><A HREF="000249.html">[SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration" </A><A NAME="249"> </A> John Woodgate <LI><A HREF="000252.html">[SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration" </A><A NAME="252"> </A> John Woodgate <LI><A HREF="000253.html">[SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration" </A><A NAME="253"> </A> philip newell <LI><A HREF="000255.html">[SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration" </A><A NAME="255"> </A> philip newell <LI><A HREF="000256.html">[SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration" </A><A NAME="256"> </A> Vessa, Brian <LI><A HREF="000257.html">[SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration" </A><A NAME="257"> </A> John Woodgate <LI><A HREF="000258.html">[SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration" </A><A NAME="258"> </A> David Josephson <LI><A HREF="000259.html">[SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration" </A><A NAME="259"> </A> Brian Long <LI><A HREF="000260.html">[SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration" </A><A NAME="260"> </A> markyonge <LI><A HREF="000261.html">[SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration" </A><A NAME="261"> </A> John Woodgate <LI><A HREF="000262.html">[SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration" </A><A NAME="262"> </A> Thomas Lagö <LI><A HREF="000263.html">[SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration" </A><A NAME="263"> </A> Peter Mapp <LI><A HREF="000264.html">[SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration" </A><A NAME="264"> </A> Thomas Lagö <LI><A HREF="000265.html">[SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration" </A><A NAME="265"> </A> John Woodgate <LI><A HREF="000266.html">[SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration" </A><A NAME="266"> </A> David Josephson <LI><A HREF="000267.html">[SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration" </A><A NAME="267"> </A> Kurt Graffy <LI><A HREF="000268.html">[SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration" </A><A NAME="268"> </A> John Woodgate <LI><A HREF="000269.html">[SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration" </A><A NAME="269"> </A> markyonge <LI><A HREF="000270.html">[SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration" </A><A NAME="270"> </A> John Woodgate <LI><A HREF="000271.html">[SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration" </A><A NAME="271"> </A> David Josephson <LI><A HREF="000272.html">[SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration" </A><A NAME="272"> </A> John Woodgate <LI><A HREF="000219.html">[SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration"; mark yonge </A><A NAME="219"> </A> Mark Yonge <LI><A HREF="000220.html">[SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration"; mark yonge </A><A NAME="220"> </A> Brian Long <LI><A HREF="000221.html">[SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration"; mark yonge </A><A NAME="221"> </A> Brian McCarty <LI><A HREF="000222.html">[SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration"; mark yonge </A><A NAME="222"> </A> Brian Long <LI><A HREF="000223.html">[SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration"; mark yonge </A><A NAME="223"> </A> philip newell <LI><A HREF="000224.html">[SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration"; mark yonge </A><A NAME="224"> </A> philip newell <LI><A HREF="000225.html">[SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration"; mark yonge </A><A NAME="225"> </A> philip newell <LI><A HREF="000227.html">[SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration"; mark yonge </A><A NAME="227"> </A> Glenn Leembruggen <LI><A HREF="000234.html">[SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration"; mark yonge </A><A NAME="234"> </A> Glenn Leembruggen <LI><A HREF="000226.html">[SC-04-08] Comments on X215 </A><A NAME="226"> </A> David Josephson <LI><A HREF="000245.html">[SC-04-08] Document attach/upload </A><A NAME="245"> </A> David Josephson <LI><A HREF="000191.html">[SC-04-08] GoToMeeting Info </A><A NAME="191"> </A> Bruce C. Olson <LI><A HREF="000192.html">[SC-04-08] GoToMeeting Info </A><A NAME="192"> </A> Frederick C. Schafer <LI><A HREF="000193.html">[SC-04-08] GoToMeeting Info </A><A NAME="193"> </A> Thomas Lagö <LI><A HREF="000194.html">[SC-04-08] GoToMeeting Info </A><A NAME="194"> </A> philip newell <LI><A HREF="000195.html">[SC-04-08] GoToMeeting Info </A><A NAME="195"> </A> Bruce C. Olson <LI><A HREF="000196.html">[SC-04-08] GoToMeeting Info </A><A NAME="196"> </A> Glenn Leembruggen <LI><A HREF="000197.html">[SC-04-08] GoToMeeting Info </A><A NAME="197"> </A> Brian McCarty <LI><A HREF="000166.html">[SC-04-08] GoToMeeting Invitation - AES SC-04-08, Berlin </A><A NAME="166"> </A> Mark Yonge <LI><A HREF="000167.html">[SC-04-08] GoToMee...

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<TITLE> [SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration" </TITLE> pre { white-space: pre-wrap; /* css-2.1, curent FF, Opera, Safari */ } <H1>[SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration"</H1> John Woodgate <A HREF="mailto:sc-04-08%40standards.aes.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BSC-04-08%5D%20Comments%20on%20%22SMPTE-Modern-Calibration%22&In-Reply-To=%3Cul4aEyT%24FOYUFwsS%40jmwa.demon.co.uk%3E" TITLE="[SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration"">jmw at jmwa.demon.co.uk </A> Mon Nov 10 09:02:07 MST 2014 <UL> <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="000271.html">[SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration" </A></li> <LI>Next message: <A HREF="000262.html">[SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration" </A></li> <LI> Messages sorted by: <a href="date.html#272">[ date ]</a> <a href="thread.html#272">[ thread ]</a> <a href="subject.html#272">[ subject ]</a> <a href="author.html#272">[ author ]</a> </LI> </UL> <HR>  <PRE>In message <<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">5460DCD1.4060007 at josephson.com</A>>, dated Mon, 10 Nov 2014, David Josephson <<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">dlj at josephson.com</A>> writes: > >Based on what I heard in the last meeting, and subsequent discussion on >this list, I doubt that there is any support for combining the efforts >for AES-X215 and AES-X219. I didn't suggest that there was, and I would oppose such a suggestion. They are separate projects with different scopes/terms of reference and different lead houses - SMPTE and AESSC. My point is that in the intensive email exchanges, the two projects were sometimes confused, causing further confusion and disagreement. So I thought it best to emphasize the differences between the two projects and seek agreement on the clear separation. -- OOO - Own Opinions Only. With best wishes. See www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Quid faciamus nisi sit? John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK </PRE>  <HR> <UL>  <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="000271.html">[SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration" </A></li> <LI>Next message: <A HREF="000262.html">[SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration" </A></li> <LI> Messages sorted by: <a href="date.html#272">[ date ]</a> <a href="thread.html#272">[ thread ]</a> <a href="subject.html#272">[ subject ]</a> <a href="author.html#272">[ author ]</a> </LI> </UL> <hr> <a href="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">More information about the SC-04-08 mailing list</a> 

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<TITLE> [SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration" </TITLE> pre { white-space: pre-wrap; /* css-2.1, curent FF, Opera, Safari */ } <H1>[SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration"</H1> David Josephson <A HREF="mailto:sc-04-08%40standards.aes.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BSC-04-08%5D%20Comments%20on%20%22SMPTE-Modern-Calibration%22&In-Reply-To=%3C5460DCD1.4060007%40josephson.com%3E" TITLE="[SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration"">dlj at josephson.com </A> Mon Nov 10 08:42:09 MST 2014 <UL> <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="000270.html">[SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration" </A></li> <LI>Next message: <A HREF="000272.html">[SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration" </A></li> <LI> Messages sorted by: <a href="date.html#271">[ date ]</a> <a href="thread.html#271">[ thread ]</a> <a href="subject.html#271">[ subject ]</a> <a href="author.html#271">[ author ]</a> </LI> </UL> <HR>  <PRE>On 11/10/14 6:57 AM, John Woodgate wrote: > In message <<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">777410D0-DB5F-430E-9D4D-3C698AB425F2 at aes.org</A>>, dated Mon, 10 > Nov 2014, markyonge <<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">mark.yonge at aes.org</A>> writes: > >> That project already exists as AES-X219. Current scope reads: "to >> specify a method of measurement for frequency and impulse response of >> sound systems in auditoria." Contributions welcome. > > OK, I agree with what you say in the bulk of your message. There is a > lack of clarity as to where the roll-off is generated. > > I noted X-219, but that was started, I think, before all that recent > clamour, and it seemed necessary to ask SC-04-08 whether it still agrees > to the two *separate* tasks: x-215 - helping SMPTE **on their terms** > and x-216 - making a new, technically-correct and up-to-date document > **on AESSC terms**. How SMPTE reacts to x-216 is up to SMPTE. Based on what I heard in the last meeting, and subsequent discussion on this list, I doubt that there is any support for combining the efforts for AES-X215 and AES-X219. On the surface the intent seems similar, but X215 is specifically about guidance for people maintaining installed cinema systems, and X219 is much broader. AES-X216 is yet another project, and I think SMPTE would be justified in thinking that our lack of comment implies that no one finds serious fault with their approach. AES-X219 could be a huge undertaking if done properly. As with most standards efforts, the challenge is to interest expert participants enough to inspire them to do the work. Nothing has been uploaded to the documents page on this project since it was proposed in early 2013. There has been enough discussion around X215 to indicate that people have strong opinions, but they may be unwilling to join the fray as the project is presently stated. David Josephson Chair, SC-04 </PRE>  <HR> <UL>  <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="000270.html">[SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration" </A></li> <LI>Next message: <A HREF="000272.html">[SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration" </A></li> <LI> Messages sorted by: <a href="date.html#271">[ date ]</a> <a href="thread.html#271">[ thread ]</a> <a href="subject.html#271">[ subject ]</a> <a href="author.html#271">[ author ]</a> </LI> </UL> <hr> <a href="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">More information about the SC-04-08 mailing list</a> 

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<TITLE> [SC-04-08] AES-X219 Clarifications </TITLE> pre { white-space: pre-wrap; /* css-2.1, curent FF, Opera, Safari */ } <H1>[SC-04-08] AES-X219 Clarifications</H1> Bruce C. Olson <A HREF="mailto:sc-04-08%40standards.aes.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BSC-04-08%5D%20AES-X219%20Clarifications&In-Reply-To=%3C007801cffd2b%24d4d602d0%247e820870%24%40aes.org%3E" TITLE="[SC-04-08] AES-X219 Clarifications">bco at aes.org </A> Mon Nov 10 14:18:09 MST 2014 <UL> <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="000254.html">[SC-04-08] Guides to standards development </A></li> <LI>Next message: <A HREF="000274.html">[SC-04-08] AES-X219 Clarifications </A></li> <LI> Messages sorted by: <a href="date.html#273">[ date ]</a> <a href="thread.html#273">[ thread ]</a> <a href="subject.html#273">[ subject ]</a> <a href="author.html#273">[ author ]</a> </LI> </UL> <HR>  <PRE>On Monday, November 10, 2014 9:42 AM David Josephson wrote: On 11/10/14 6:57 AM, John Woodgate wrote: > In message <<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">777410D0-DB5F-430E-9D4D-3C698AB425F2 at aes.org</A>>, dated Mon, > 10 Nov 2014, markyonge <<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">mark.yonge at aes.org</A>> writes: > >> That project already exists as AES-X219. Current scope reads: "to >> specify a method of measurement for frequency and impulse response of >> sound systems in auditoria." Contributions welcome. > > OK, I agree with what you say in the bulk of your message. There is a > lack of clarity as to where the roll-off is generated. > > I noted X-219, but that was started, I think, before all that recent > clamour, and it seemed necessary to ask SC-04-08 whether it still > agrees to the two *separate* tasks: x-215 - helping SMPTE **on their > terms** and x-216 - making a new, technically-correct and up-to-date > document **on AESSC terms**. How SMPTE reacts to x-216 is up to SMPTE. AES-X219 could be a huge undertaking if done properly. As with most standards efforts, the challenge is to interest expert participants enough to inspire them to do the work. Nothing has been uploaded to the documents page on this project since it was proposed in early 2013. [[BCO]] Actually Eddy Brixen uploaded NT acou 108 on 39 Mar 2013 to be used as a basis for AES-X219. We need a task leader and for folks to identify the following: 1) Clause to Retain with only editorial changes 2) Clauses to Remove 3) Clauses to Improve 4) Clauses to Add I urge the group to propose items 1 and 2, suggest changes for 3, and propose wording for 4. Bruce -- Bruce C. Olson Audio Engineering Society Standards Committee Chair phone: +1 (763) 493-5835 email: <A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">bco at aes.org</A> web: <A HREF="http://www.aes.org/standards/">http://www.aes.org/standards/</A> </PRE>  <HR> <UL>  <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="000254.html">[SC-04-08] Guides to standards development </A></li> <LI>Next message: <A HREF="000274.html">[SC-04-08] AES-X219 Clarifications </A></li> <LI> Messages sorted by: <a href="date.html#273">[ date ]</a> <a href="thread.html#273">[ thread ]</a> <a href="subject.html#273">[ subject ]</a> <a href="author.html#273">[ author ]</a> </LI> </UL> <hr> <a href="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">More information about the SC-04-08 mailing list</a> 

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<TITLE> [SC-04-08] AES-X219 Clarifications </TITLE> pre { white-space: pre-wrap; /* css-2.1, curent FF, Opera, Safari */ } <H1>[SC-04-08] AES-X219 Clarifications</H1> David Josephson <A HREF="mailto:sc-04-08%40standards.aes.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BSC-04-08%5D%20AES-X219%20Clarifications&In-Reply-To=%3C54612DC9.7000600%40josephson.com%3E" TITLE="[SC-04-08] AES-X219 Clarifications">dlj at josephson.com </A> Mon Nov 10 14:27:37 MST 2014 <UL> <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="000273.html">[SC-04-08] AES-X219 Clarifications </A></li> <LI>Next message: <A HREF="000277.html">[SC-04-08] AES-X219 Clarifications </A></li> <LI> Messages sorted by: <a href="date.html#274">[ date ]</a> <a href="thread.html#274">[ thread ]</a> <a href="subject.html#274">[ subject ]</a> <a href="author.html#274">[ author ]</a> </LI> </UL> <HR>  <PRE>On 11/10/2014 1:18 PM, Bruce C. Olson wrote: > On Monday, November 10, 2014 9:42 AM David Josephson wrote: > > On 11/10/14 6:57 AM, John Woodgate wrote: > >> In message <<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">777410D0-DB5F-430E-9D4D-3C698AB425F2 at aes.org</A>>, dated Mon, >> 10 Nov 2014, markyonge <<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">mark.yonge at aes.org</A>> writes: >> >>> That project already exists as AES-X219. Current scope reads: "to >>> specify a method of measurement for frequency and impulse response of >>> sound systems in auditoria." Contributions welcome. >> >> OK, I agree with what you say in the bulk of your message. There is a >> lack of clarity as to where the roll-off is generated. >> >> I noted X-219, but that was started, I think, before all that recent >> clamour, and it seemed necessary to ask SC-04-08 whether it still >> agrees to the two *separate* tasks: x-215 - helping SMPTE **on their >> terms** and x-216 - making a new, technically-correct and up-to-date >> document **on AESSC terms**. How SMPTE reacts to x-216 is up to SMPTE. > > AES-X219 could be a huge undertaking if done properly. As with most > standards efforts, the challenge is to interest expert participants enough > to inspire them to do the work. Nothing has been uploaded to the documents > page on this project since it was proposed in early 2013. > > [[BCO]] Actually Eddy Brixen uploaded NT acou 108 on 39 Mar 2013 to be used > as a basis for AES-X219. We need a task leader and for folks to identify the > following: > 1) Clause to Retain with only editorial changes > 2) Clauses to Remove > 3) Clauses to Improve > 4) Clauses to Add > > I urge the group to propose items 1 and 2, suggest changes for 3, and > propose wording for 4. According to the status of projects report at <A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/standards/sc_projects.cfm?ID=91">https://secure.aes.org/standards/sc_projects.cfm?ID=91</A> Eddy's upload of the NT ACOU 108 method is in connection with AES-X218. If they are the same project, either X218 or X219 should be retired. I believe that X218 is about review of the Nordtest standard, and X219 is about development of a new standard. The scopes are broad and overlap to some extent. David Josephson Chair, SC-04 </PRE>  <HR> <UL>  <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="000273.html">[SC-04-08] AES-X219 Clarifications </A></li> <LI>Next message: <A HREF="000277.html">[SC-04-08] AES-X219 Clarifications </A></li> <LI> Messages sorted by: <a href="date.html#274">[ date ]</a> <a href="thread.html#274">[ thread ]</a> <a href="subject.html#274">[ subject ]</a> <a href="author.html#274">[ author ]</a> </LI> </UL> <hr> <a href="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">More information about the SC-04-08 mailing list</a> 

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<TITLE> [SC-04-08] AES-X219 Clarifications </TITLE> pre { white-space: pre-wrap; /* css-2.1, curent FF, Opera, Safari */ } <H1>[SC-04-08] AES-X219 Clarifications</H1> Bharitkar, Sunil <A HREF="mailto:sc-04-08%40standards.aes.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BSC-04-08%5D%20AES-X219%20Clarifications&In-Reply-To=%3CD0866D0F.C390%25Sunil.Bharitkar%40dolby.com%3E" TITLE="[SC-04-08] AES-X219 Clarifications">sunil.bharitkar at dolby.com </A> Mon Nov 10 14:32:41 MST 2014 <UL> <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="000277.html">[SC-04-08] AES-X219 Clarifications </A></li> <LI>Next message: <A HREF="000276.html">[SC-04-08] AES-X219 Clarifications </A></li> <LI> Messages sorted by: <a href="date.html#275">[ date ]</a> <a href="thread.html#275">[ thread ]</a> <a href="subject.html#275">[ subject ]</a> <a href="author.html#275">[ author ]</a> </LI> </UL> <HR>  <PRE>Thanks Bruce. As David rightfully points, X-219 will be a significant (time and resources wise) undertaking to quantify objective performance with several candidate variables in the measurement chain, as well as confirming the results with properly done subjective tests. It would be an impactful standard if and when completed. -------------------------- Sunil Bharitkar, Ph. D. Dir. of Technology, Audio Office of the CTO Dolby Laboratories, Inc. <A HREF="http://www.dolby.com">http://www.dolby.com</A> (O)+1-415-558-0283 On 11/10/14, 1:18 PM, "Bruce C. Olson" <<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">bco at aes.org</A>> wrote: >On Monday, November 10, 2014 9:42 AM David Josephson wrote: > >On 11/10/14 6:57 AM, John Woodgate wrote: > >> In message <<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">777410D0-DB5F-430E-9D4D-3C698AB425F2 at aes.org</A>>, dated Mon, >> 10 Nov 2014, markyonge <<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">mark.yonge at aes.org</A>> writes: >> >>> That project already exists as AES-X219. Current scope reads: "to >>> specify a method of measurement for frequency and impulse response of >>> sound systems in auditoria." Contributions welcome. >> >> OK, I agree with what you say in the bulk of your message. There is a >> lack of clarity as to where the roll-off is generated. >> >> I noted X-219, but that was started, I think, before all that recent >> clamour, and it seemed necessary to ask SC-04-08 whether it still >> agrees to the two *separate* tasks: x-215 - helping SMPTE **on their >> terms** and x-216 - making a new, technically-correct and up-to-date >> document **on AESSC terms**. How SMPTE reacts to x-216 is up to SMPTE. > >AES-X219 could be a huge undertaking if done properly. As with most >standards efforts, the challenge is to interest expert participants enough >to inspire them to do the work. Nothing has been uploaded to the documents >page on this project since it was proposed in early 2013. > >[[BCO]] Actually Eddy Brixen uploaded NT acou 108 on 39 Mar 2013 to be >used >as a basis for AES-X219. We need a task leader and for folks to identify >the >following: > 1) Clause to Retain with only editorial changes > 2) Clauses to Remove > 3) Clauses to Improve > 4) Clauses to Add > >I urge the group to propose items 1 and 2, suggest changes for 3, and >propose wording for 4. > >Bruce > >-- >Bruce C. Olson >Audio Engineering Society >Standards Committee Chair > >phone: +1 (763) 493-5835 >email: <A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">bco at aes.org</A> >web: <A HREF="http://www.aes.org/standards/">http://www.aes.org/standards/</A> > >_______________________________________________ >SC-04-08 mailing list ><A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">SC-04-08 at standards.aes.org</A> ><<A HREF="http://standards.aes.org/sc.cfm?ID=91">http://standards.aes.org/sc.cfm?ID=91</A>> </PRE>  <HR> <UL>  <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="000277.html">[SC-04-08] AES-X219 Clarifications </A></li> <LI>Next message: <A HREF="000276.html">[SC-04-08] AES-X219 Clarifications </A></li> <LI> Messages sorted by: <a href="date.html#275">[ date ]</a> <a href="thread.html#275">[ thread ]</a> <a href="subject.html#275">[ subject ]</a> <a href="author.html#275">[ author ]</a> </LI> </UL> <hr> <a href="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">More information about the SC-04-08 mailing list</a> 

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<TITLE> [SC-04-08] AES-X219 Clarifications </TITLE> pre { white-space: pre-wrap; /* css-2.1, curent FF, Opera, Safari */ } <H1>[SC-04-08] AES-X219 Clarifications</H1> John Woodgate <A HREF="mailto:sc-04-08%40standards.aes.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BSC-04-08%5D%20AES-X219%20Clarifications&In-Reply-To=%3Ct5MaDzWvWTYUFwc6%40jmwa.demon.co.uk%3E" TITLE="[SC-04-08] AES-X219 Clarifications">jmw at jmwa.demon.co.uk </A> Mon Nov 10 15:01:19 MST 2014 <UL> <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="000275.html">[SC-04-08] AES-X219 Clarifications </A></li> <LI>Next message: <A HREF="000279.html">[SC-04-08] AES-X219 Clarifications </A></li> <LI> Messages sorted by: <a href="date.html#276">[ date ]</a> <a href="thread.html#276">[ thread ]</a> <a href="subject.html#276">[ subject ]</a> <a href="author.html#276">[ author ]</a> </LI> </UL> <HR>  <PRE>In message <D0866D0F.C390%<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">Sunil.Bharitkar at dolby.com</A>>, dated Mon, 10 Nov 2014, "Bharitkar, Sunil" <<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">sunil.bharitkar at dolby.com</A>> writes: >As David rightfully points, X-219 will be a significant (time and >resources wise) undertaking to quantify objective performance with >several candidate variables in the measurement chain, as well as >confirming the results with properly done subjective tests. Unlike for IEC standards, there is no time-scale for AES standard development, so it can take as long as it takes, provided it doesn't languish. > >It would be an impactful standard if and when completed. Precisely. It would be well worth doing. In fact a cynic would say hat if we can't do it, we don't understand the subject. -- OOO - Own Opinions Only. With best wishes. See www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Quid faciamus nisi sit? John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK </PRE>  <HR> <UL>  <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="000275.html">[SC-04-08] AES-X219 Clarifications </A></li> <LI>Next message: <A HREF="000279.html">[SC-04-08] AES-X219 Clarifications </A></li> <LI> Messages sorted by: <a href="date.html#276">[ date ]</a> <a href="thread.html#276">[ thread ]</a> <a href="subject.html#276">[ subject ]</a> <a href="author.html#276">[ author ]</a> </LI> </UL> <hr> <a href="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">More information about the SC-04-08 mailing list</a> 

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<TITLE> [SC-04-08] AES-X219 Clarifications </TITLE> pre { white-space: pre-wrap; /* css-2.1, curent FF, Opera, Safari */ } <H1>[SC-04-08] AES-X219 Clarifications</H1> John Woodgate <A HREF="mailto:sc-04-08%40standards.aes.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BSC-04-08%5D%20AES-X219%20Clarifications&In-Reply-To=%3C35scD7XveTYUFwe8%40jmwa.demon.co.uk%3E" TITLE="[SC-04-08] AES-X219 Clarifications">jmw at jmwa.demon.co.uk </A> Mon Nov 10 15:09:51 MST 2014 <UL> <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="000280.html">[SC-04-08] AES-X219 Clarifications </A></li> <LI>Next message: <A HREF="000281.html">[SC-04-08] Advance information </A></li> <LI> Messages sorted by: <a href="date.html#278">[ date ]</a> <a href="thread.html#278">[ thread ]</a> <a href="subject.html#278">[ subject ]</a> <a href="author.html#278">[ author ]</a> </LI> </UL> <HR>  <PRE>In message <007801cffd2b$d4d602d0$7e820870$@aes.org>, dated Mon, 10 Nov 2014, Bruce C. Olson <<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">bco at aes.org</A>> writes: >[[BCO]] Actually Eddy Brixen uploaded NT acou 108 on 39 Mar 2013 to be >used as a basis for AES-X219. We need a task leader and for folks to >identify the following: > 1) Clause to Retain with only editorial changes > 2) Clauses to Remove > 3) Clauses to Improve > 4) Clauses to Add > >I urge the group to propose items 1 and 2, suggest changes for 3, and >propose wording for 4. Agreed. I can't look at it this week, but unless I forget, I probably can next week. But I don't claim expertise in this subject. -- OOO - Own Opinions Only. With best wishes. See www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Quid faciamus nisi sit? John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK </PRE>  <HR> <UL>  <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="000280.html">[SC-04-08] AES-X219 Clarifications </A></li> <LI>Next message: <A HREF="000281.html">[SC-04-08] Advance information </A></li> <LI> Messages sorted by: <a href="date.html#278">[ date ]</a> <a href="thread.html#278">[ thread ]</a> <a href="subject.html#278">[ subject ]</a> <a href="author.html#278">[ author ]</a> </LI> </UL> <hr> <a href="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">More information about the SC-04-08 mailing list</a> 

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<TITLE> [SC-04-08] AES-X219 Clarifications </TITLE> pre { white-space: pre-wrap; /* css-2.1, curent FF, Opera, Safari */ } <H1>[SC-04-08] AES-X219 Clarifications</H1> John Woodgate <A HREF="mailto:sc-04-08%40standards.aes.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BSC-04-08%5D%20AES-X219%20Clarifications&In-Reply-To=%3C4pYfHSX%2BbTYUFw%24b%40jmwa.demon.co.uk%3E" TITLE="[SC-04-08] AES-X219 Clarifications">jmw at jmwa.demon.co.uk </A> Mon Nov 10 15:06:54 MST 2014 <UL> <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="000274.html">[SC-04-08] AES-X219 Clarifications </A></li> <LI>Next message: <A HREF="000275.html">[SC-04-08] AES-X219 Clarifications </A></li> <LI> Messages sorted by: <a href="date.html#277">[ date ]</a> <a href="thread.html#277">[ thread ]</a> <a href="subject.html#277">[ subject ]</a> <a href="author.html#277">[ author ]</a> </LI> </UL> <HR>  <PRE>In message <<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">54612DC9.7000600 at josephson.com</A>>, dated Mon, 10 Nov 2014, David Josephson <<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">dlj at josephson.com</A>> writes: >According to the status of projects report at ><A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/standards/sc_projects.cfm?ID=91">https://secure.aes.org/standards/sc_projects.cfm?ID=91</A> Eddy's upload of >the NT ACOU 108 method is in connection with AES-X218. If they are the >same project, either X218 or X219 should be retired. It might be premature to do that. >I believe that X218 is about review of the Nordtest standard, If that review is very favourable, an AES standard might 'fall out' of the review work. But the Nordtest standard is not exactly new, so it might be necessary to develop a standard derived only in a minority part form the Nordtest, so that would be X219. >and X219 is about development of a new standard. The scopes are broad >and overlap to some extent. That's not a problem if we can agree on the above. We don't need to make a decision on X219 until we have the outcome of X218. Horse first, then cart. -- OOO - Own Opinions Only. With best wishes. See www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Quid faciamus nisi sit? John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK </PRE>  <HR> <UL>  <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="000274.html">[SC-04-08] AES-X219 Clarifications </A></li> <LI>Next message: <A HREF="000275.html">[SC-04-08] AES-X219 Clarifications </A></li> <LI> Messages sorted by: <a href="date.html#277">[ date ]</a> <a href="thread.html#277">[ thread ]</a> <a href="subject.html#277">[ subject ]</a> <a href="author.html#277">[ author ]</a> </LI> </UL> <hr> <a href="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">More information about the SC-04-08 mailing list</a> 

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<TITLE> [SC-04-08] AES-X219 Clarifications </TITLE> pre { white-space: pre-wrap; /* css-2.1, curent FF, Opera, Safari */ } <H1>[SC-04-08] AES-X219 Clarifications</H1> David Josephson <A HREF="mailto:sc-04-08%40standards.aes.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BSC-04-08%5D%20AES-X219%20Clarifications&In-Reply-To=%3C54614243.2060109%40josephson.com%3E" TITLE="[SC-04-08] AES-X219 Clarifications">dlj at josephson.com </A> Mon Nov 10 15:54:59 MST 2014 <UL> <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="000276.html">[SC-04-08] AES-X219 Clarifications </A></li> <LI>Next message: <A HREF="000280.html">[SC-04-08] AES-X219 Clarifications </A></li> <LI> Messages sorted by: <a href="date.html#279">[ date ]</a> <a href="thread.html#279">[ thread ]</a> <a href="subject.html#279">[ subject ]</a> <a href="author.html#279">[ author ]</a> </LI> </UL> <HR>  <PRE>On 11/10/2014 2:01 PM, John Woodgate wrote: > In message <D0866D0F.C390%<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">Sunil.Bharitkar at dolby.com</A>>, dated Mon, 10 Nov > 2014, "Bharitkar, Sunil" <<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">sunil.bharitkar at dolby.com</A>> writes: > >> As David rightfully points, X-219 will be a significant (time and >> resources wise) undertaking to quantify objective performance with >> several candidate variables in the measurement chain, as well as >> confirming the results with properly done subjective tests. > > Unlike for IEC standards, there is no time-scale for AES standard > development, so it can take as long as it takes, provided it doesn't > languish. >> >> It would be an impactful standard if and when completed. > > Precisely. It would be well worth doing. In fact a cynic would say hat > if we can't do it, we don't understand the subject. Another cynic would say that if we think we can do it as presently cast, we don't understand the subject. Without a concerted effort to break this into manageable pieces, it will not progress. While there is no mandated time-scale, there's also no point maintaining a project that no one is working on. As I understand the intent, we want to define a method for measuring the impulse response of a system in a room. Yes, we can measure the response at a point in the room, what good is that? Do we want the average response of the room? Do we want to know the standard deviation -- and in what parameter -- of a randomly selected set of places in the room? I can think of some useful things to do to improve the common understanding in a generalized case, but this does not speak to the needs of the TC-SDCTV. Particularly if we want to address finer details like group delay scatter degrading intelligibility, we need to know what information is required. The AESSC process works when a group of people have a similar goal and want to reach consensus on *a* (not necessarily *the*) common method for reaching it. Perhaps those closer to the cinema sound design world can define what is desired. David Josephson Chair, SC-04 </PRE>  <HR> <UL>  <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="000276.html">[SC-04-08] AES-X219 Clarifications </A></li> <LI>Next message: <A HREF="000280.html">[SC-04-08] AES-X219 Clarifications </A></li> <LI> Messages sorted by: <a href="date.html#279">[ date ]</a> <a href="thread.html#279">[ thread ]</a> <a href="subject.html#279">[ subject ]</a> <a href="author.html#279">[ author ]</a> </LI> </UL> <hr> <a href="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">More information about the SC-04-08 mailing list</a> 

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<TITLE> [SC-04-08] AES-X219 Clarifications </TITLE> pre { white-space: pre-wrap; /* css-2.1, curent FF, Opera, Safari */ } <H1>[SC-04-08] AES-X219 Clarifications</H1> John Woodgate <A HREF="mailto:sc-04-08%40standards.aes.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BSC-04-08%5D%20AES-X219%20Clarifications&In-Reply-To=%3CPClidJbIqbYUFwaj%40jmwa.demon.co.uk%3E" TITLE="[SC-04-08] AES-X219 Clarifications">jmw at jmwa.demon.co.uk </A> Tue Nov 11 00:28:08 MST 2014 <UL> <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="000279.html">[SC-04-08] AES-X219 Clarifications </A></li> <LI>Next message: <A HREF="000278.html">[SC-04-08] AES-X219 Clarifications </A></li> <LI> Messages sorted by: <a href="date.html#280">[ date ]</a> <a href="thread.html#280">[ thread ]</a> <a href="subject.html#280">[ subject ]</a> <a href="author.html#280">[ author ]</a> </LI> </UL> <HR>  <PRE>In message <<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">54614243.2060109 at josephson.com</A>>, dated Mon, 10 Nov 2014, David Josephson <<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">dlj at josephson.com</A>> writes: >Another cynic would say that if we think we can do it as presently >cast, we don't understand the subject. That's a matter for SMPTE. We either accept that they want an interim solution, however imperfect, or we withdraw our assistance. > >Without a concerted effort to break this into manageable pieces, it >will not progress. While there is no mandated time-scale, there's also >no point maintaining a project that no one is working on. Of course, but I thought we had manageable pieces - x218 and x219. > >As I understand the intent, we want to define a method for measuring >the impulse response of a system in a room. Yes, we can measure the >response at a point in the room, what good is that? It's a start. Without that we cannot progress. >Do we want the average response of the room? Almost certainly not. Such averages hide a multitude of sins. >Do we want to know the standard deviation -- and in what parameter -- >of a randomly selected set of places in the room? It would be valuable. >I can think of some useful things to do to improve the common >understanding in a generalized case, but this does not speak to the >needs of the TC-SDCTV. No, with respect you are mixing up the projects. Assisting SMPTE is one, limited project, under SMPTE terms of reference. x218 and x219 are purely AESSC projects, not tied to SMPTE. >Particularly if we want to address finer details like group delay >scatter degrading intelligibility, we need to know what information is >required. These are all very good questions but they are for x219. The plan was, and I suppose still is, is first to look at Eddie's Nordtest document to see if it provides a way forward and to what extent. If it doesn't, or only to a very limited extent, then we have to work on x219, avoiding the temptation to try to make it the 'ultimate solution for all time' by including very difficult things like the influence of group delay on speech intelligibility. I have some thoughts about that, but they are for a different message. > >The AESSC process works when a group of people have a similar goal and >want to reach consensus on *a* (not necessarily *the*) common method >for reaching it. Perhaps those closer to the cinema sound design world >can define what is desired. x218 and x219 are not tied to cinema; they are general. -- OOO - Own Opinions Only. With best wishes. See www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Quid faciamus nisi sit? John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK </PRE>  <HR> <UL>  <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="000279.html">[SC-04-08] AES-X219 Clarifications </A></li> <LI>Next message: <A HREF="000278.html">[SC-04-08] AES-X219 Clarifications </A></li> <LI> Messages sorted by: <a href="date.html#280">[ date ]</a> <a href="thread.html#280">[ thread ]</a> <a href="subject.html#280">[ subject ]</a> <a href="author.html#280">[ author ]</a> </LI> </UL> <hr> <a href="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">More information about the SC-04-08 mailing list</a> 

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<TITLE> [SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration" </TITLE> pre { white-space: pre-wrap; /* css-2.1, curent FF, Opera, Safari */ } <H1>[SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration"</H1> Thomas Lagö <A HREF="mailto:sc-04-08%40standards.aes.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BSC-04-08%5D%20Comments%20on%20%22SMPTE-Modern-Calibration%22&In-Reply-To=%3CBLU436-SMTP229E80A3F413CAA337A8D29CC820%40phx.gbl%3E" TITLE="[SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration"">thomaslago at msn.com </A> Sat Nov 8 05:48:55 MST 2014 <UL> <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="000272.html">[SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration" </A></li> <LI>Next message: <A HREF="000263.html">[SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration" </A></li> <LI> Messages sorted by: <a href="date.html#262">[ date ]</a> <a href="thread.html#262">[ thread ]</a> <a href="subject.html#262">[ subject ]</a> <a href="author.html#262">[ author ]</a> </LI> </UL> <HR>  <PRE>Dear SC-04-08, I have read the extensive communication during the last period. There is a main focus on amplitude flatness and I question if that is as important as discussed. The reason is that speech intelligibility (how your really understand what is being said in movies and hearing details) is more dependent on the phase response than on the amplitude flatness. Actually, having a constant Group Delay is essential if transients (or dynamic signals) should keep their time waveform intact. Since this is paramount (in the listeners position), it is important to have a stronger focus on Group Delay than on Amplitude. The ears will adjust to sound “color” but not to poor intelligibility. The FFT keeps being mentioned. The FFT is not an RTA and is not able to handle time integration as an RTA would. I am against the use of FFT for dynamic signals. I have written numerous papers on the topic. An FFT demands stationary signals that are either tonal OR random (one at a time, not simultaneously). It is a poor tool for intelligibility measurements. Poor intelligibility in theatres (and other environments for that matter) leads to increased SPL being used and could also lead to that the long-term memory is being disabled. Research by Professor Staffan Hygge in Sweden shows this. When you have to listen really hard, the brain cannot store information! I have heard many people complain that they have a hard time remembering details from the movie or performance. I believe that a contributing factor could be low intelligibility. I have made many tests on this topic via my own research. The challenges that Philip Newell is referring to in regards to amplitude measurements, I concur. The measurement process is questionable and I also question the focus on amplitude flatness without consideration on Group Delay impact. I would even go so far that I claim that we might be “hunting the wrong factor”. Also, third octave filters are really bad for Group Delay and even if the amplitude flatness gets somewhat better, the Group Delay goes out the window. Then, intelligibility has been hampered. What did we gain then? A flatter EQ but it is even harder to hear the movie sound details? I am open to discuss this further but I think it is important to think about the following: “are we focusing on the most important factors in regards to “hearing sound details in the movie”, then quantifying this with the proper tools?” Best regards, Thomas Lagö > On 07 Nov 2014, at 17:29, markyonge <<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">mark.yonge at aes.org</A>> wrote: > > Dear SC-04-08, > > In my note of 2014-11-04, I stated, "The X-curve is a measurement artifact and not an audio roll-off:. > > Philip Newell then asserted: "*It is an audio roll-off.*" > > Let me explore this statement a little more, if I may. > > I have been puzzled by this assertion - a roll-off is not specified in the standards (SMPTE ST 202 or ISO 2969) that define the X-curve, nor can I find any argument in favour of a non-flat frequency response for modern films in modern auditoria. Where has this idea come from? > > Then it occurred to me that a person calibrating an inappropriate room to ST 202 would be faced with a dilemma. He would be forced to conclude either: > > a) The measurement method is correct, but the room sounds dull, therefore the measurement method must be requiring a roll-off in the audio path. Or, > > b) The measurement method is incorrect in these circumstances because it can't achieve a flat frequency response for direct sound. > > The document, "Cinema sound: a new look at old concepts" seems to embrace conclusion 'a' as a starting point. It shows results for 20 rooms and implies that the room sizes varied significantly, but ignores the effect this would have on a classic X-curve calibration. It appears to consider the nominal X-curve as a rigid template that must be applied in the same way to all rooms regardless of size or acoustic absorbtion. While deprecating the X-curve in general, it fails to recognise the systematic flexibility in ST 202 (see * below). > > An engineering standard is not a law to be obeyed even if it makes no clear sense. If a standard no longer fits its purpose, then it is time to change it a better standard that does. > > Given that the range of cinema sizes and reverberation characteristics has expanded greatly since the late 1970s, applying the ST 202 X-curve now needs more care, skill, and experience, not less. A new RP requiring (in effect) semi-skilled technicians to apply the ST 202 X-curve in a doctrinaire way will tend to formalize dull-sounding small cinemas, which is the exact opposite of what we are seeking to achieve. The audiences that pay all our wages will not thank us for this. > > I would like to encourage this group to consider conclusion 'b', and that the X-curve in ST 202, used outside its originally-intended context, may simply not be useful for many modern cinemas and the modern cinema-equipment business. A new measurement method is required rather urgently, I think. > > > * In "x215-PNewell141104-IOA2010.pdf", the only reference for the X-curve is to Ioan Allen's 2006 paper in the SMPTE Journal, and it avoids mentioning ST 202 entirely. This is a shame, because the important qualifications in ST 202 clause 6.2, figure 5, annex A.5e and annex A.5f make clear that the single curve shown as figure 1 in "x215-PNewell141104-IOA2010.pdf" is only valid for a medium sized theater (with between, say, 200 and 500 seats). Correction values are proposed for larger and smaller rooms that will change the shape of the X-curve that is approprate for them. > > The survey of room responses in "x215-PNewell141104-IOA2010.pdf", is interesting. The range of variation in the 2/3-distance RTA curves shown for these 20 rooms was, in my view, wide. If you take the nominal "medium sized theater" curve as a fixed reference for all cases, then 9 appear to be reasonable, while 5 appear bright, 5 appear dull, and 1 just seems odd (cine8). Without further information, that's over 50% apparently miscalibrated. > > However, this paper does not indicate the size of the rooms and so it is not possible to correlate the room size with the curve produced on an RTA, which might have been helpful. > > Philip - in summary, I am agreeing with your concluding remark that, "... it seems to be clear that there is ample justification for a thorough reassessment of the current cinema alignment procedures." > > But you haven't proved that the ST 202 X-curve requires a roll-off. > > Sincerely, > > Mark Yonge > vice chair, SC-04-08 > > > On 2014-11-04, I wrote: >> Dear SC-04-08, >> >> This discussion of the SMPTE ST 202 X-curve, developed in the late 1970s, would only be of arcane historical interest, except for the suggestion that it might be perpetuated in the Modern Calibration draft using a different measurement technique. >> >> In the late 1970s I aligned many cinemas for Dolby Laboratories, who were active in developing the X-curve as a pragmatic tool to calibrate the B-chains of mix rooms and cinemas. The intent was to take full advantage of the essentially-flat A-chain frequency response in Dolby Stereo films. The measurement equipment that was available seemed like rocket science at the time, but now looks very dated. The measurement technique produced reasonably consistent results, but relied heavily on some working assumptions, many of which are also now outdate...

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<TITLE> [SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration" </TITLE> pre { white-space: pre-wrap; /* css-2.1, curent FF, Opera, Safari */ } <H1>[SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration"</H1> John Woodgate <A HREF="mailto:sc-04-08%40standards.aes.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BSC-04-08%5D%20Comments%20on%20%22SMPTE-Modern-Calibration%22&In-Reply-To=%3CLhlTV5G3yPXUFwg%2B%40jmwa.demon.co.uk%3E" TITLE="[SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration"">jmw at jmwa.demon.co.uk </A> Fri Nov 7 10:09:11 MST 2014 <UL> <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="000260.html">[SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration" </A></li> <LI>Next message: <A HREF="000269.html">[SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration" </A></li> <LI> Messages sorted by: <a href="date.html#261">[ date ]</a> <a href="thread.html#261">[ thread ]</a> <a href="subject.html#261">[ subject ]</a> <a href="author.html#261">[ author ]</a> </LI> </UL> <HR>  <PRE>In message <<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">C9013EED-6984-4890-AA04-9116F4A0EBB3 at aes.org</A>>, dated Fri, 7 Nov 2014, markyonge <<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">mark.yonge at aes.org</A>> writes: >I have been puzzled by this assertion - a roll-off is not specified in >the standards (SMPTE ST 202 or ISO 2969) that define the X-curve, nor >can I find any argument in favour of a non-flat frequency response for >modern films in modern auditoria. Where has this idea come from? Then >it occurred to me that a person calibrating an inappropriate room to ST >202 would be faced with a dilemma. He would be forced to conclude >either: a) The measurement method is correct, but the room sounds >dull, therefore the measurement method must be requiring a roll-off in >the audio path. Or, b) The measurement method is incorrect in these >circumstances because it can't achieve a flat frequency response for >direct sound. I thought there might be ambiguity in ST202, but for me, 6.1 is quite clear and definitive: QUOTE 6.1 The electroacoustic response of the B-chain for screen and surround channels shall be as listed in Table 1 and shown in Figure 5 within the tolerances given. Note that this characteristic is for a medium sized theater (with between, say, 200 and 500 seats) with average reverberation behavior. See Annex A.5 for a discussion of modifications required to this characteristic for larger and smaller spaces and for surround loudspeaker arrays. ENDQUOTE It unequivocally calls for a roll-off. There is an explanation in A.5e, but it is simply a declaration without provenance. For me, the claim in the first sentence is counter-intuitive, and contrary to my experience, certainly of speech and music, before I partially lost my hearing. QUOTE e) All published experimenters have found that in a large room, a flat response near-field loudspeaker is subjectively best matched by a distant loudspeaker having an apparent high-frequency roll-off when assessed with steady-state measurements. The source of the need for this measured roll-off appears to be the differing interaction of the sound field with the head, pinnae, and ear canal between a distantly originating sound field and one originating close by, or by differences between transient and steady responses caused by the mechanism described in b) above. ENDQUOTE Of course, with a loudspeaker behind a screen, there is inevitably a roll-off. Attempts to compensate for that might not have been very successful, resulting in an uneven high-frequency response that was not attractive, so leading to the idea that the roll-off was a good thing. I don't think we are going to resolve this without going back to a blank sheet and disregarding any source that is not a peer-reviewed paper. This is not an attempt to belittle the SMPTE documents, but there seems so much 'baggage' attached to them that taking them into consideration at an early stage in a re-appraisal is, as could be expected, proving very difficult. When we have a new appraisal in SC-04-08 that enjoys consensus, we can then compare it with the SMPTE documents to see what changes, if any, are necessary. We don't ask SMPTE to change their documents at the present stage, unless they volunteer to. -- OOO - Own Opinions Only. With best wishes. See www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Quid faciamus nisi sit? John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK </PRE>  <HR> <UL>  <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="000260.html">[SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration" </A></li> <LI>Next message: <A HREF="000269.html">[SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration" </A></li> <LI> Messages sorted by: <a href="date.html#261">[ date ]</a> <a href="thread.html#261">[ thread ]</a> <a href="subject.html#261">[ subject ]</a> <a href="author.html#261">[ author ]</a> </LI> </UL> <hr> <a href="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">More information about the SC-04-08 mailing list</a> 

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<TITLE> [SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration" </TITLE> pre { white-space: pre-wrap; /* css-2.1, curent FF, Opera, Safari */ } <H1>[SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration"</H1> Peter Mapp <A HREF="mailto:sc-04-08%40standards.aes.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BSC-04-08%5D%20Comments%20on%20%22SMPTE-Modern-Calibration%22&In-Reply-To=%3C1F57A05DE35E9A49AB0F4A58DE5CA50F1C2434%40mappsrv.Mapp.local%3E" TITLE="[SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration"">peter at petermapp.com </A> Sat Nov 8 06:47:57 MST 2014 <UL> <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="000262.html">[SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration" </A></li> <LI>Next message: <A HREF="000264.html">[SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration" </A></li> <LI> Messages sorted by: <a href="date.html#263">[ date ]</a> <a href="thread.html#263">[ thread ]</a> <a href="subject.html#263">[ subject ]</a> <a href="author.html#263">[ author ]</a> </LI> </UL> <HR>  <PRE>Thomas You are quite right that there is more to speech intelligibility than amplitude flatness - and phase is certainly an important parameter - though its effects and importance ranking are not yet well understood. Amplitude response is of crucial importance to listener fatigue and intelligibility ( as phase may also be). As we are not yet fully in agreement as to how to measure and set criteria for frequency response amplitude in the cinema environment, introducing another variable at this stage might not be highly productive - though it is certainly a parameter that needs to be considered in the wider context. I would be pleased to discuss this with you further off line. Peter Mapp Vice Chair SC-04 / Chair IEC 60268-16 Intelligibility measurement -----Original Message----- From: <A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">sc-04-08-bounces at standards.aes.org</A> [mailto:<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">sc-04-08-bounces at standards.aes.org</A>] On Behalf Of Thomas Lagö Sent: 08 November 2014 12:49 To: Working group on Measurement and equalization of sound systems in rooms Cc: markyonge Subject: Re: [SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration" Dear SC-04-08, I have read the extensive communication during the last period. There is a main focus on amplitude flatness and I question if that is as important as discussed. The reason is that speech intelligibility (how your really understand what is being said in movies and hearing details) is more dependent on the phase response than on the amplitude flatness. Actually, having a constant Group Delay is essential if transients (or dynamic signals) should keep their time waveform intact. Since this is paramount (in the listeners position), it is important to have a stronger focus on Group Delay than on Amplitude. The ears will adjust to sound "color" but not to poor intelligibility. The FFT keeps being mentioned. The FFT is not an RTA and is not able to handle time integration as an RTA would. I am against the use of FFT for dynamic signals. I have written numerous papers on the topic. An FFT demands stationary signals that are either tonal OR random (one at a time, not simultaneously). It is a poor tool for intelligibility measurements. Poor intelligibility in theatres (and other environments for that matter) leads to increased SPL being used and could also lead to that the long-term memory is being disabled. Research by Professor Staffan Hygge in Sweden shows this. When you have to listen really hard, the brain cannot store information! I have heard many people complain that they have a hard time remembering details from the movie or performance. I believe that a contributing factor could be low intelligibility. I have made many tests on this topic via my own research. The challenges that Philip Newell is referring to in regards to amplitude measurements, I concur. The measurement process is questionable and I also question the focus on amplitude flatness without consideration on Group Delay impact. I would even go so far that I claim that we might be "hunting the wrong factor". Also, third octave filters are really bad for Group Delay and even if the amplitude flatness gets somewhat better, the Group Delay goes out the window. Then, intelligibility has been hampered. What did we gain then? A flatter EQ but it is even harder to hear the movie sound details? I am open to discuss this further but I think it is important to think about the following: "are we focusing on the most important factors in regards to "hearing sound details in the movie", then quantifying this with the proper tools?" Best regards, Thomas Lagö > On 07 Nov 2014, at 17:29, markyonge <<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">mark.yonge at aes.org</A>> wrote: > > Dear SC-04-08, > > In my note of 2014-11-04, I stated, "The X-curve is a measurement artifact and not an audio roll-off:. > > Philip Newell then asserted: "*It is an audio roll-off.*" > > Let me explore this statement a little more, if I may. > > I have been puzzled by this assertion - a roll-off is not specified in the standards (SMPTE ST 202 or ISO 2969) that define the X-curve, nor can I find any argument in favour of a non-flat frequency response for modern films in modern auditoria. Where has this idea come from? > > Then it occurred to me that a person calibrating an inappropriate room to ST 202 would be faced with a dilemma. He would be forced to conclude either: > > a) The measurement method is correct, but the room sounds dull, therefore the measurement method must be requiring a roll-off in the audio path. Or, > > b) The measurement method is incorrect in these circumstances because it can't achieve a flat frequency response for direct sound. > > The document, "Cinema sound: a new look at old concepts" seems to embrace conclusion 'a' as a starting point. It shows results for 20 rooms and implies that the room sizes varied significantly, but ignores the effect this would have on a classic X-curve calibration. It appears to consider the nominal X-curve as a rigid template that must be applied in the same way to all rooms regardless of size or acoustic absorbtion. While deprecating the X-curve in general, it fails to recognise the systematic flexibility in ST 202 (see * below). > > An engineering standard is not a law to be obeyed even if it makes no clear sense. If a standard no longer fits its purpose, then it is time to change it a better standard that does. > > Given that the range of cinema sizes and reverberation characteristics has expanded greatly since the late 1970s, applying the ST 202 X-curve now needs more care, skill, and experience, not less. A new RP requiring (in effect) semi-skilled technicians to apply the ST 202 X-curve in a doctrinaire way will tend to formalize dull-sounding small cinemas, which is the exact opposite of what we are seeking to achieve. The audiences that pay all our wages will not thank us for this. > > I would like to encourage this group to consider conclusion 'b', and that the X-curve in ST 202, used outside its originally-intended context, may simply not be useful for many modern cinemas and the modern cinema-equipment business. A new measurement method is required rather urgently, I think. > > > * In "x215-PNewell141104-IOA2010.pdf", the only reference for the X-curve is to Ioan Allen's 2006 paper in the SMPTE Journal, and it avoids mentioning ST 202 entirely. This is a shame, because the important qualifications in ST 202 clause 6.2, figure 5, annex A.5e and annex A.5f make clear that the single curve shown as figure 1 in "x215-PNewell141104-IOA2010.pdf" is only valid for a medium sized theater (with between, say, 200 and 500 seats). Correction values are proposed for larger and smaller rooms that will change the shape of the X-curve that is approprate for them. > > The survey of room responses in "x215-PNewell141104-IOA2010.pdf", is interesting. The range of variation in the 2/3-distance RTA curves shown for these 20 rooms was, in my view, wide. If you take the nominal "medium sized theater" curve as a fixed reference for all cases, then 9 appear to be reasonable, while 5 appear bright, 5 appear dull, and 1 just seems odd (cine8). Without further information, that's over 50% apparently miscalibrated. > > However, this paper does not indicate the size of the rooms and so it is not possible to correlate the room size with the curve produced on an RTA, which might have been helpful. > > Philip - in summary, I am agreeing with your concluding remark that, "... it seems to be clear that there is ample justificat...

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<TITLE> [SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration" </TITLE> pre { white-space: pre-wrap; /* css-2.1, curent FF, Opera, Safari */ } <H1>[SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration"</H1> Thomas Lagö <A HREF="mailto:sc-04-08%40standards.aes.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BSC-04-08%5D%20Comments%20on%20%22SMPTE-Modern-Calibration%22&In-Reply-To=%3CBLU436-SMTP1251BD27FA54E97D8008116CC820%40phx.gbl%3E" TITLE="[SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration"">thomaslago at msn.com </A> Sat Nov 8 06:58:37 MST 2014 <UL> <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="000263.html">[SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration" </A></li> <LI>Next message: <A HREF="000265.html">[SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration" </A></li> <LI> Messages sorted by: <a href="date.html#264">[ date ]</a> <a href="thread.html#264">[ thread ]</a> <a href="subject.html#264">[ subject ]</a> <a href="author.html#264">[ author ]</a> </LI> </UL> <HR>  <PRE>Dear Peter, Thanks for your prompt response. When handling amplitude, it must be done without impacting phase. I do not agree that intelligibility is not that well understood. I have done 30+ years research on the topic and was part of the team implementing the speech enhancement for all Ericsson’s cell phone (plus more brands). Before fatigue happens in regards to amplitude, it has happened much earlier for lack of intelligibility (group delay is paramount for this). We can chat on Skype in regards to this topic, if you want. Best regards, > On 08 Nov 2014, at 14:47, Peter Mapp <<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">peter at petermapp.com</A>> wrote: > > Thomas > > You are quite right that there is more to speech intelligibility than amplitude flatness - and phase is certainly an important parameter - though its effects and importance ranking are not yet well understood. Amplitude response is of crucial importance to listener fatigue and intelligibility ( as phase may also be). As we are not yet fully in agreement as to how to measure and set criteria for frequency response amplitude in the cinema environment, introducing another variable at this stage might not be highly productive - though it is certainly a parameter that needs to be considered in the wider context. I would be pleased to discuss this with you further off line. > > Peter Mapp > > Vice Chair SC-04 / Chair IEC 60268-16 Intelligibility measurement > > -----Original Message----- > From: <A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">sc-04-08-bounces at standards.aes.org</A> [mailto:<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">sc-04-08-bounces at standards.aes.org</A>] On Behalf Of Thomas Lagö > Sent: 08 November 2014 12:49 > To: Working group on Measurement and equalization of sound systems in rooms > Cc: markyonge > Subject: Re: [SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration" > > Dear SC-04-08, > > I have read the extensive communication during the last period. There is a main focus on amplitude flatness and I question if that is as important as discussed. The reason is that speech intelligibility (how your really understand what is being said in movies and hearing details) is more dependent on the phase response than on the amplitude flatness. Actually, having a constant Group Delay is essential if transients (or dynamic signals) should keep their time waveform intact. Since this is paramount (in the listeners position), it is important to have a stronger focus on Group Delay than on Amplitude. The ears will adjust to sound "color" but not to poor intelligibility. > > The FFT keeps being mentioned. The FFT is not an RTA and is not able to handle time integration as an RTA would. I am against the use of FFT for dynamic signals. I have written numerous papers on the topic. An FFT demands stationary signals that are either tonal OR random (one at a time, not simultaneously). It is a poor tool for intelligibility measurements. > > Poor intelligibility in theatres (and other environments for that matter) leads to increased SPL being used and could also lead to that the long-term memory is being disabled. Research by Professor Staffan Hygge in Sweden shows this. When you have to listen really hard, the brain cannot store information! I have heard many people complain that they have a hard time remembering details from the movie or performance. I believe that a contributing factor could be low intelligibility. I have made many tests on this topic via my own research. > > The challenges that Philip Newell is referring to in regards to amplitude measurements, I concur. The measurement process is questionable and I also question the focus on amplitude flatness without consideration on Group Delay impact. I would even go so far that I claim that we might be "hunting the wrong factor". Also, third octave filters are really bad for Group Delay and even if the amplitude flatness gets somewhat better, the Group Delay goes out the window. Then, intelligibility has been hampered. What did we gain then? A flatter EQ but it is even harder to hear the movie sound details? > > I am open to discuss this further but I think it is important to think about the following: "are we focusing on the most important factors in regards to "hearing sound details in the movie", then quantifying this with the proper tools?" > > Best regards, > > Thomas Lagö > > >> On 07 Nov 2014, at 17:29, markyonge <<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">mark.yonge at aes.org</A>> wrote: >> >> Dear SC-04-08, >> >> In my note of 2014-11-04, I stated, "The X-curve is a measurement artifact and not an audio roll-off:. >> >> Philip Newell then asserted: "*It is an audio roll-off.*" >> >> Let me explore this statement a little more, if I may. >> >> I have been puzzled by this assertion - a roll-off is not specified in the standards (SMPTE ST 202 or ISO 2969) that define the X-curve, nor can I find any argument in favour of a non-flat frequency response for modern films in modern auditoria. Where has this idea come from? >> >> Then it occurred to me that a person calibrating an inappropriate room to ST 202 would be faced with a dilemma. He would be forced to conclude either: >> >> a) The measurement method is correct, but the room sounds dull, therefore the measurement method must be requiring a roll-off in the audio path. Or, >> >> b) The measurement method is incorrect in these circumstances because it can't achieve a flat frequency response for direct sound. >> >> The document, "Cinema sound: a new look at old concepts" seems to embrace conclusion 'a' as a starting point. It shows results for 20 rooms and implies that the room sizes varied significantly, but ignores the effect this would have on a classic X-curve calibration. It appears to consider the nominal X-curve as a rigid template that must be applied in the same way to all rooms regardless of size or acoustic absorbtion. While deprecating the X-curve in general, it fails to recognise the systematic flexibility in ST 202 (see * below). >> >> An engineering standard is not a law to be obeyed even if it makes no clear sense. If a standard no longer fits its purpose, then it is time to change it a better standard that does. >> >> Given that the range of cinema sizes and reverberation characteristics has expanded greatly since the late 1970s, applying the ST 202 X-curve now needs more care, skill, and experience, not less. A new RP requiring (in effect) semi-skilled technicians to apply the ST 202 X-curve in a doctrinaire way will tend to formalize dull-sounding small cinemas, which is the exact opposite of what we are seeking to achieve. The audiences that pay all our wages will not thank us for this. >> >> I would like to encourage this group to consider conclusion 'b', and that the X-curve in ST 202, used outside its originally-intended context, may simply not be useful for many modern cinemas and the modern cinema-equipment business. A new measurement method is required rather urgently, I think. >> >> >> * In "x215-PNewell141104-IOA2010.pdf", the only reference for the X-curve is to Ioan Allen's 2006 paper in the SMPTE Journal, and it avoids mentioning ST 202 entirely. This is a shame, because the important qualifications in ST 202 clause...

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<TITLE> [SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration" </TITLE> pre { white-space: pre-wrap; /* css-2.1, curent FF, Opera, Safari */ } <H1>[SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration"</H1> John Woodgate <A HREF="mailto:sc-04-08%40standards.aes.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BSC-04-08%5D%20Comments%20on%20%22SMPTE-Modern-Calibration%22&In-Reply-To=%3Ct9HayNC8ZiXUFwUb%40jmwa.demon.co.uk%3E" TITLE="[SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration"">jmw at jmwa.demon.co.uk </A> Sat Nov 8 07:19:40 MST 2014 <UL> <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="000264.html">[SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration" </A></li> <LI>Next message: <A HREF="000266.html">[SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration" </A></li> <LI> Messages sorted by: <a href="date.html#265">[ date ]</a> <a href="thread.html#265">[ thread ]</a> <a href="subject.html#265">[ subject ]</a> <a href="author.html#265">[ author ]</a> </LI> </UL> <HR>  <PRE>In message <<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">BLU436-SMTP1251BD27FA54E97D8008116CC820 at phx.gbl</A>>, dated Sat, 8 Nov 2014, Thomas Lagö <<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">thomaslago at msn.com</A>> writes: >I do not agree that intelligibility is not that well understood. I have >done 30+ years research on the topic Please share your knowledge with, in particular, IEC TC100 MT 60268-16, because those guys don't dare claim to understand it. If they did, they'd be out of work.(;-) -- OOO - Own Opinions Only. With best wishes. See www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Quid faciamus nisi sit? John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK </PRE>  <HR> <UL>  <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="000264.html">[SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration" </A></li> <LI>Next message: <A HREF="000266.html">[SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration" </A></li> <LI> Messages sorted by: <a href="date.html#265">[ date ]</a> <a href="thread.html#265">[ thread ]</a> <a href="subject.html#265">[ subject ]</a> <a href="author.html#265">[ author ]</a> </LI> </UL> <hr> <a href="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">More information about the SC-04-08 mailing list</a> 

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<TITLE> [SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration" </TITLE> pre { white-space: pre-wrap; /* css-2.1, curent FF, Opera, Safari */ } <H1>[SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration"</H1> David Josephson <A HREF="mailto:sc-04-08%40standards.aes.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BSC-04-08%5D%20Comments%20on%20%22SMPTE-Modern-Calibration%22&In-Reply-To=%3C545E43F4.6050509%40josephson.com%3E" TITLE="[SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration"">dlj at josephson.com </A> Sat Nov 8 09:25:24 MST 2014 <UL> <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="000265.html">[SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration" </A></li> <LI>Next message: <A HREF="000267.html">[SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration" </A></li> <LI> Messages sorted by: <a href="date.html#266">[ date ]</a> <a href="thread.html#266">[ thread ]</a> <a href="subject.html#266">[ subject ]</a> <a href="author.html#266">[ author ]</a> </LI> </UL> <HR>  <PRE>Thomas, There is a focus on amplitude flatness only because that's what SMPTE would like to measure at this point in evolution of publicly standardized cinema practices. The goal of the SMPTE recommended practice is not initial characterization of a room or system, but only periodic maintenance to see that a given setup (which was hopefully designed and installed with group delay in mind) has not degraded. I completely agree with you that controlling group delay is important for the reasons you mention, but characterizing the magnitude response is also essential. Intelligibility is not the only goal here; the elephant in the room is that cinema owners' feet are being held to the fire with regard to sound level exposure and there is a need for practices they can use to assure that the system performs as it did when it was installed. That is a primary goal of the present effort, as I understand it. Many people share your views on FFT measurements. We have a responsibility to take the high road here, and it is not appropriate to perpetuate old rejections of misapplied technology. FFTs can absolutely be used as the basis of an RTA, it just takes more arithmetic. You cannot expect to derive a sound level measurement from a single FFT time slice, but the same limitation would apply if you looked at magnitude with insufficient integrating time. The present project is to provide guidance to SMPTE as they have requested, on amplitude calibration. I would urge you to think about the logical next steps to develop a measurement practice that can be embraced by the cinema world for characterization of group delay targets and performance in playback rooms, and suggest a suitable project toward a repeatable process that people will use to achieve this. Regards David Josephson Chair, SC-04 On 11/8/14 4:48 AM, Thomas Lagö wrote: > Dear SC-04-08, > > I have read the extensive communication during the last period. There > is a main focus on amplitude flatness and I question if that is as > important as discussed. The reason is that speech intelligibility > (how your really understand what is being said in movies and hearing > details) is more dependent on the phase response than on the > amplitude flatness. Actually, having a constant Group Delay is > essential if transients (or dynamic signals) should keep their time > waveform intact. Since this is paramount (in the listeners position), > it is important to have a stronger focus on Group Delay than on > Amplitude. The ears will adjust to sound “color” but not to poor > intelligibility. > > The FFT keeps being mentioned. The FFT is not an RTA and is not able > to handle time integration as an RTA would. I am against the use of > FFT for dynamic signals. I have written numerous papers on the topic. > An FFT demands stationary signals that are either tonal OR random > (one at a time, not simultaneously). It is a poor tool for > intelligibility measurements. > > Poor intelligibility in theatres (and other environments for that > matter) leads to increased SPL being used and could also lead to that > the long-term memory is being disabled. Research by Professor Staffan > Hygge in Sweden shows this. When you have to listen really hard, the > brain cannot store information! I have heard many people complain > that they have a hard time remembering details from the movie or > performance. I believe that a contributing factor could be low > intelligibility. I have made many tests on this topic via my own > research. > > The challenges that Philip Newell is referring to in regards to > amplitude measurements, I concur. The measurement process is > questionable and I also question the focus on amplitude flatness > without consideration on Group Delay impact. I would even go so far > that I claim that we might be “hunting the wrong factor”. Also, third > octave filters are really bad for Group Delay and even if the > amplitude flatness gets somewhat better, the Group Delay goes out the > window. Then, intelligibility has been hampered. What did we gain > then? A flatter EQ but it is even harder to hear the movie sound > details? > > I am open to discuss this further but I think it is important to > think about the following: “are we focusing on the most important > factors in regards to “hearing sound details in the movie”, then > quantifying this with the proper tools?” > > Best regards, > > Thomas Lagö > > >> On 07 Nov 2014, at 17:29, markyonge <<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">mark.yonge at aes.org</A>> wrote: >> >> Dear SC-04-08, >> >> In my note of 2014-11-04, I stated, "The X-curve is a measurement >> artifact and not an audio roll-off:. >> >> Philip Newell then asserted: "*It is an audio roll-off.*" >> >> Let me explore this statement a little more, if I may. >> >> I have been puzzled by this assertion - a roll-off is not specified >> in the standards (SMPTE ST 202 or ISO 2969) that define the >> X-curve, nor can I find any argument in favour of a non-flat >> frequency response for modern films in modern auditoria. Where has >> this idea come from? >> >> Then it occurred to me that a person calibrating an inappropriate >> room to ST 202 would be faced with a dilemma. He would be forced to >> conclude either: >> >> a) The measurement method is correct, but the room sounds dull, >> therefore the measurement method must be requiring a roll-off in >> the audio path. Or, >> >> b) The measurement method is incorrect in these circumstances >> because it can't achieve a flat frequency response for direct >> sound. >> >> The document, "Cinema sound: a new look at old concepts" seems to >> embrace conclusion 'a' as a starting point. It shows results for 20 >> rooms and implies that the room sizes varied significantly, but >> ignores the effect this would have on a classic X-curve >> calibration. It appears to consider the nominal X-curve as a rigid >> template that must be applied in the same way to all rooms >> regardless of size or acoustic absorbtion. While deprecating the >> X-curve in general, it fails to recognise the systematic >> flexibility in ST 202 (see * below). >> >> An engineering standard is not a law to be obeyed even if it makes >> no clear sense. If a standard no longer fits its purpose, then it >> is time to change it a better standard that does. >> >> Given that the range of cinema sizes and reverberation >> characteristics has expanded greatly since the late 1970s, applying >> the ST 202 X-curve now needs more care, skill, and experience, not >> less. A new RP requiring (in effect) semi-skilled technicians to >> apply the ST 202 X-curve in a doctrinaire way will tend to >> formalize dull-sounding small cinemas, which is the exact opposite >> of what we are seeking to achieve. The audiences that pay all our >> wages will not thank us for this. >> >> I would like to encourage this group ...

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<TITLE> [SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration" </TITLE> pre { white-space: pre-wrap; /* css-2.1, curent FF, Opera, Safari */ } <H1>[SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration"</H1> John Woodgate <A HREF="mailto:sc-04-08%40standards.aes.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BSC-04-08%5D%20Comments%20on%20%22SMPTE-Modern-Calibration%22&In-Reply-To=%3CoHQ7MgDjHoXUFw3%24%40jmwa.demon.co.uk%3E" TITLE="[SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration"">jmw at jmwa.demon.co.uk </A> Sat Nov 8 13:49:39 MST 2014 <UL> <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="000267.html">[SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration" </A></li> <LI>Next message: <A HREF="000243.html">[SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration" </A></li> <LI> Messages sorted by: <a href="date.html#268">[ date ]</a> <a href="thread.html#268">[ thread ]</a> <a href="subject.html#268">[ subject ]</a> <a href="author.html#268">[ author ]</a> </LI> </UL> <HR>  <PRE>In message <<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">6486C977153C5E418F0A1FF02E3566EE275B9055 at AMXExMb01.global.arup.com</A>>, dated Sat, 8 Nov 2014, Kurt Graffy <<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">Kurt.Graffy at arup.com</A>> writes: >In particular to reiterate that the document that SMPTE has provided >for comment is not concerned with specifying the sound system or >establishing criteria that cinema sound systems/components should meet. > >Although both of these aspects are important and need to be addressed, >they are beyond the current document's scope, and await future >investigation. Indeed. I hoped that by now it was clear that there are two projects: 1 - co-operation with SMPTE *within their terms of reference* to make interim improvements in their documents; 2 - an SC-04-08 initiative to review the subject of measurements in rooms and maybe produce a new document - report or standard - embodying the latest understanding and technology. If that's agreed, it needs someone to formally initiate project 2. -- OOO - Own Opinions Only. With best wishes. See www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Quid faciamus nisi sit? John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK </PRE>  <HR> <UL>  <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="000267.html">[SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration" </A></li> <LI>Next message: <A HREF="000243.html">[SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration" </A></li> <LI> Messages sorted by: <a href="date.html#268">[ date ]</a> <a href="thread.html#268">[ thread ]</a> <a href="subject.html#268">[ subject ]</a> <a href="author.html#268">[ author ]</a> </LI> </UL> <hr> <a href="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">More information about the SC-04-08 mailing list</a> 

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<TITLE> [SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration" </TITLE> pre { white-space: pre-wrap; /* css-2.1, curent FF, Opera, Safari */ } <H1>[SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration"</H1> Kurt Graffy <A HREF="mailto:sc-04-08%40standards.aes.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BSC-04-08%5D%20Comments%20on%20%22SMPTE-Modern-Calibration%22&In-Reply-To=%3C6486C977153C5E418F0A1FF02E3566EE275B9055%40AMXExMb01.global.arup.com%3E" TITLE="[SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration"">Kurt.Graffy at arup.com </A> Sat Nov 8 12:50:23 MST 2014 <UL> <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="000266.html">[SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration" </A></li> <LI>Next message: <A HREF="000268.html">[SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration" </A></li> <LI> Messages sorted by: <a href="date.html#267">[ date ]</a> <a href="thread.html#267">[ thread ]</a> <a href="subject.html#267">[ subject ]</a> <a href="author.html#267">[ author ]</a> </LI> </UL> <HR>  <PRE>Dear SC-04-08: I would like to second David's comments. In particular to reiterate that the document that SMPTE has provided for comment is not concerned with specifying the sound system or establishing criteria that cinema sound systems/components should meet. Although both of these aspects are important and need to be addressed, they are beyond the current document's scope, and await future investigation. Consequently we need to be clear that we're not co-mingling system design criteria factors with the factors that are within the realm of adjustability for an already installed system. As may be noted there are enough issues merely establishing a consistent and relevant methodology for the technician calibrating levels and magnitude response in the field. If there are problems with system factors such as group delay, by that point in the process they simply are what they are, the train left that station long ago. Cheers. Kurt Graffy -----Original Message----- From: <A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">sc-04-08-bounces at standards.aes.org</A> [mailto:<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">sc-04-08-bounces at standards.aes.org</A>] On Behalf Of David Josephson Sent: Saturday, November 08, 2014 8:25 AM To: Working group on Measurement and equalization of sound systems in rooms Subject: Re: [SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration" Thomas, There is a focus on amplitude flatness only because that's what SMPTE would like to measure at this point in evolution of publicly standardized cinema practices. The goal of the SMPTE recommended practice is not initial characterization of a room or system, but only periodic maintenance to see that a given setup (which was hopefully designed and installed with group delay in mind) has not degraded. I completely agree with you that controlling group delay is important for the reasons you mention, but characterizing the magnitude response is also essential. Intelligibility is not the only goal here; the elephant in the room is that cinema owners' feet are being held to the fire with regard to sound level exposure and there is a need for practices they can use to assure that the system performs as it did when it was installed. That is a primary goal of the present effort, as I understand it. Many people share your views on FFT measurements. We have a responsibility to take the high road here, and it is not appropriate to perpetuate old rejections of misapplied technology. FFTs can absolutely be used as the basis of an RTA, it just takes more arithmetic. You cannot expect to derive a sound level measurement from a single FFT time slice, but the same limitation would apply if you looked at magnitude with insufficient integrating time. The present project is to provide guidance to SMPTE as they have requested, on amplitude calibration. I would urge you to think about the logical next steps to develop a measurement practice that can be embraced by the cinema world for characterization of group delay targets and performance in playback rooms, and suggest a suitable project toward a repeatable process that people will use to achieve this. Regards David Josephson Chair, SC-04 On 11/8/14 4:48 AM, Thomas Lagö wrote: > Dear SC-04-08, > > I have read the extensive communication during the last period. There > is a main focus on amplitude flatness and I question if that is as > important as discussed. The reason is that speech intelligibility (how > your really understand what is being said in movies and hearing > details) is more dependent on the phase response than on the amplitude > flatness. Actually, having a constant Group Delay is essential if > transients (or dynamic signals) should keep their time waveform > intact. Since this is paramount (in the listeners position), it is > important to have a stronger focus on Group Delay than on Amplitude. > The ears will adjust to sound “color” but not to poor intelligibility. > > The FFT keeps being mentioned. The FFT is not an RTA and is not able > to handle time integration as an RTA would. I am against the use of > FFT for dynamic signals. I have written numerous papers on the topic. > An FFT demands stationary signals that are either tonal OR random (one > at a time, not simultaneously). It is a poor tool for intelligibility > measurements. > > Poor intelligibility in theatres (and other environments for that > matter) leads to increased SPL being used and could also lead to that > the long-term memory is being disabled. Research by Professor Staffan > Hygge in Sweden shows this. When you have to listen really hard, the > brain cannot store information! I have heard many people complain that > they have a hard time remembering details from the movie or > performance. I believe that a contributing factor could be low > intelligibility. I have made many tests on this topic via my own > research. > > The challenges that Philip Newell is referring to in regards to > amplitude measurements, I concur. The measurement process is > questionable and I also question the focus on amplitude flatness > without consideration on Group Delay impact. I would even go so far > that I claim that we might be “hunting the wrong factor”. Also, third > octave filters are really bad for Group Delay and even if the > amplitude flatness gets somewhat better, the Group Delay goes out the > window. Then, intelligibility has been hampered. What did we gain > then? A flatter EQ but it is even harder to hear the movie sound > details? > > I am open to discuss this further but I think it is important to think > about the following: “are we focusing on the most important factors in > regards to “hearing sound details in the movie”, then quantifying this > with the proper tools?” > > Best regards, > > Thomas Lagö > > >> On 07 Nov 2014, at 17:29, markyonge <<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">mark.yonge at aes.org</A>> wrote: >> >> Dear SC-04-08, >> >> In my note of 2014-11-04, I stated, "The X-curve is a measurement >> artifact and not an audio roll-off:. >> >> Philip Newell then asserted: "*It is an audio roll-off.*" >> >> Let me explore this statement a little more, if I may. >> >> I have been puzzled by this assertion - a roll-off is not specified >> in the standards (SMPTE ST 202 or ISO 2969) that define the X-curve, >> nor can I find any argument in favour of a non-flat frequency >> response for modern films in modern auditoria. Where has this idea >> come from? >> >> Then it occurred to me that a person calibrating an inappropriate >> room to ST 202 would be faced with a dilemma. He would be forced to >> conclude either: >> >> a) The measurement method is correct, but the room sounds dull, >> therefore the measurement method must be requiring a roll-off in the >> audio path. Or, >> >> b) The measurement method is incorrect in these circumstances because >> it can't achieve a flat frequency response for direct sound. >> >> The document, "Cinema sound: a new look at old concepts" seems to >> embrace conclusion 'a' as a starting p...

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<TITLE> [SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration" </TITLE> pre { white-space: pre-wrap; /* css-2.1, curent FF, Opera, Safari */ } <H1>[SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration"</H1> markyonge <A HREF="mailto:sc-04-08%40standards.aes.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BSC-04-08%5D%20Comments%20on%20%22SMPTE-Modern-Calibration%22&In-Reply-To=%3C777410D0-DB5F-430E-9D4D-3C698AB425F2%40aes.org%3E" TITLE="[SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration"">mark.yonge at aes.org </A> Mon Nov 10 07:38:28 MST 2014 <UL> <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="000261.html">[SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration" </A></li> <LI>Next message: <A HREF="000270.html">[SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration" </A></li> <LI> Messages sorted by: <a href="date.html#269">[ date ]</a> <a href="thread.html#269">[ thread ]</a> <a href="subject.html#269">[ subject ]</a> <a href="author.html#269">[ author ]</a> </LI> </UL> <HR>  <PRE>John, > On 2014-11-07, at 17:09, John Woodgate <<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">jmw at jmwa.demon.co.uk</A>> wrote: > QUOTE > 6.1 The electroacoustic response of the B-chain for screen and surround channels shall be as listed in Table 1 and shown in Figure 5 within the tolerances given. Note that this characteristic is for a medium sized theater (with between, say, 200 and 500 seats) with average reverberation behavior. See Annex A.5 for a discussion of modifications required to this characteristic for larger and smaller spaces and for surround loudspeaker arrays. > ENDQUOTE > > It unequivocally calls for a roll-off. There is an explanation in A.5e, but it is simply a declaration without provenance. For me, the claim in the first sentence is counter-intuitive, and contrary to my experience, certainly of speech and music, before I partially lost my hearing. I agree, but it isn't at all clear where roll-off is intended to appear in the measurement chain. There are two schools of thought: a) The roll-off is in the audio path, something like the old 'academy' filter, and the method of measurement is sufficiently perfect that any kind of audio spectrum analysis can be used in place of the old RTA to confirm this, or; b) The audio path is flat, and the roll-off appears only in the display of the RTA as a result of the reverberation addition that happens when continuous pink noise is used in a reverberant room and measured on a 1/3-octave real-time audio analyser. The language in ST 202 is sufficiently indistinct that it appears possible for both theories to survive. However they cannot coexist - that would invoke a paradox. The text in ST 202 A.5.e hints strongly at theory 'b', but fails to be quite definite. It is quite possible that the need for detailed engineering clarity was not considered necessary at the time the X-curve was created. The fact that the available instrumentation did not support such clarity may be significant. After all, traditional dubbing theatres and cinemas were generally of a similar size and acoustic character and so, if you equalized them both in the same way, the mix heard in the dubbing theatre and the mix heard in the cinemas should sound very similar (and, when compared to what went before, it did). Nowadays, when the size of cinemas varies much more widely, and all sizes of mix room are used to create movie soundtracks, this presumed complementarity no longer holds true. > Of course, with a loudspeaker behind a screen, there is inevitably a roll-off. Attempts to compensate for that might not have been very successful, resulting in an uneven high-frequency response that was not attractive, so leading to the idea that the roll-off was a good thing. Yes, of course - and there's the air-path loss to a typical seat in the cinema to account for, too. However, both of these losses are fairly smooth in character and routinely compensated by equalization in the B-chain audio path so they shouldn't affect the measurement itself. As I recall, at higher frequencies the equalization of a typical cinema shows a more-or-less gentle boost in an otherwise-flat electro-acoustic B-chain. No audio-path roll-off involved. > On 2014-11-08, at 20:49, John Woodgate <<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">jmw at jmwa.demon.co.uk</A>> wrote: > Indeed. I hoped that by now it was clear that there are two projects: > > 1 - co-operation with SMPTE *within their terms of reference* to make interim improvements in their documents; > > 2 - an SC-04-08 initiative to review the subject of measurements in rooms and maybe produce a new document - report or standard - embodying the latest understanding and technology. > > If that's agreed, it needs someone to formally initiate project 2. That project already exists as AES-X219. Current scope reads: "to specify a method of measurement for frequency and impulse response of sound systems in auditoria." Contributions welcome. regards, Mark Yonge Vice chair SC-04-08 </PRE>  <HR> <UL>  <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="000261.html">[SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration" </A></li> <LI>Next message: <A HREF="000270.html">[SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration" </A></li> <LI> Messages sorted by: <a href="date.html#269">[ date ]</a> <a href="thread.html#269">[ thread ]</a> <a href="subject.html#269">[ subject ]</a> <a href="author.html#269">[ author ]</a> </LI> </UL> <hr> <a href="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">More information about the SC-04-08 mailing list</a> 

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<TITLE> [SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration" </TITLE> pre { white-space: pre-wrap; /* css-2.1, curent FF, Opera, Safari */ } <H1>[SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration"</H1> John Woodgate <A HREF="mailto:sc-04-08%40standards.aes.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BSC-04-08%5D%20Comments%20on%20%22SMPTE-Modern-Calibration%22&In-Reply-To=%3C8mTu0ISTJNYUFwfy%40jmwa.demon.co.uk%3E" TITLE="[SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration"">jmw at jmwa.demon.co.uk </A> Mon Nov 10 07:57:23 MST 2014 <UL> <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="000269.html">[SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration" </A></li> <LI>Next message: <A HREF="000271.html">[SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration" </A></li> <LI> Messages sorted by: <a href="date.html#270">[ date ]</a> <a href="thread.html#270">[ thread ]</a> <a href="subject.html#270">[ subject ]</a> <a href="author.html#270">[ author ]</a> </LI> </UL> <HR>  <PRE>In message <<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">777410D0-DB5F-430E-9D4D-3C698AB425F2 at aes.org</A>>, dated Mon, 10 Nov 2014, markyonge <<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">mark.yonge at aes.org</A>> writes: >That project already exists as AES-X219. Current scope reads: "to >specify a method of measurement for frequency and impulse response of >sound systems in auditoria." Contributions welcome. OK, I agree with what you say in the bulk of your message. There is a lack of clarity as to where the roll-off is generated. I noted X-219, but that was started, I think, before all that recent clamour, and it seemed necessary to ask SC-04-08 whether it still agrees to the two *separate* tasks: x-215 - helping SMPTE **on their terms** and x-216 - making a new, technically-correct and up-to-date document **on AESSC terms**. How SMPTE reacts to x-216 is up to SMPTE. -- OOO - Own Opinions Only. With best wishes. See www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Quid faciamus nisi sit? John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK </PRE>  <HR> <UL>  <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="000269.html">[SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration" </A></li> <LI>Next message: <A HREF="000271.html">[SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration" </A></li> <LI> Messages sorted by: <a href="date.html#270">[ date ]</a> <a href="thread.html#270">[ thread ]</a> <a href="subject.html#270">[ subject ]</a> <a href="author.html#270">[ author ]</a> </LI> </UL> <hr> <a href="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">More information about the SC-04-08 mailing list</a> 

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<TITLE> [SC-04-08] X215 Point of order </TITLE> pre { white-space: pre-wrap; /* css-2.1, curent FF, Opera, Safari */ } <H1>[SC-04-08] X215 Point of order</H1> John Woodgate <A HREF="mailto:sc-04-08%40standards.aes.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BSC-04-08%5D%20X215%20Point%20of%20order&In-Reply-To=%3CFpPQ3bSa0SWUFw4X%40jmwa.demon.co.uk%3E" TITLE="[SC-04-08] X215 Point of order">jmw at jmwa.demon.co.uk </A> Tue Nov 4 12:46:34 MST 2014 <UL> <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="000247.html">[SC-04-08] X215 Point of order </A></li> <LI>Next message: <A HREF="000250.html">[SC-04-08] X215 Point of order </A></li> <LI> Messages sorted by: <a href="date.html#251">[ date ]</a> <a href="thread.html#251">[ thread ]</a> <a href="subject.html#251">[ subject ]</a> <a href="author.html#251">[ author ]</a> </LI> </UL> <HR>  <PRE>In message <<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">5459278E.6060307 at josephson.com</A>>, dated Tue, 4 Nov 2014, David Josephson <<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">dlj at josephson.com</A>> writes: >'d like to confirm that we are all shooting at the same target. I've just posted a message suggesting that we are shooting at two different targets. Maybe I've misread the situation, but... Stabilizing the old methods is one target. Bringing the methods into the 21st century is a completely different target, and one which SMPTE seems not to want to address at present (because it can't address both at once). But I think AES CAN address both. -- OOO - Own Opinions Only. With best wishes. See www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Quid faciamus nisi sit? John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK </PRE>  <HR> <UL>  <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="000247.html">[SC-04-08] X215 Point of order </A></li> <LI>Next message: <A HREF="000250.html">[SC-04-08] X215 Point of order </A></li> <LI> Messages sorted by: <a href="date.html#251">[ date ]</a> <a href="thread.html#251">[ thread ]</a> <a href="subject.html#251">[ subject ]</a> <a href="author.html#251">[ author ]</a> </LI> </UL> <hr> <a href="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">More information about the SC-04-08 mailing list</a> 

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<TITLE> [SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration" </TITLE> pre { white-space: pre-wrap; /* css-2.1, curent FF, Opera, Safari */ } <H1>[SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration"</H1> John Woodgate <A HREF="mailto:sc-04-08%40standards.aes.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BSC-04-08%5D%20Comments%20on%20%22SMPTE-Modern-Calibration%22&In-Reply-To=%3CNJESPxS02SWUFw7Q%40jmwa.demon.co.uk%3E" TITLE="[SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration"">jmw at jmwa.demon.co.uk </A> Tue Nov 4 12:49:08 MST 2014 <UL> <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="000246.html">[SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration" </A></li> <LI>Next message: <A HREF="000253.html">[SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration" </A></li> <LI> Messages sorted by: <a href="date.html#252">[ date ]</a> <a href="thread.html#252">[ thread ]</a> <a href="subject.html#252">[ subject ]</a> <a href="author.html#252">[ author ]</a> </LI> </UL> <HR>  <PRE>In message <CAEEhACmrn7W_bsWZE0_bKq_rw5U0Oj=FAya=<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">cASp7bU6KZPqnA at mail.gmail.com</A>>, dated Tue, 4 Nov 2014, philip newell <<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">philiprnewell at gmail.com</A>> writes: >Attached here is the Cardiff paper (if the attachment works). You can't attach anything. I'm surprised no-one told you before. You must upload it to the SC-04-08 web page. If you don't know how, Mark will tell you, or If he's not around, send it to me by private email and I'll upload it. -- OOO - Own Opinions Only. With best wishes. See www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Quid faciamus nisi sit? John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK </PRE>  <HR> <UL>  <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="000246.html">[SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration" </A></li> <LI>Next message: <A HREF="000253.html">[SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration" </A></li> <LI> Messages sorted by: <a href="date.html#252">[ date ]</a> <a href="thread.html#252">[ thread ]</a> <a href="subject.html#252">[ subject ]</a> <a href="author.html#252">[ author ]</a> </LI> </UL> <hr> <a href="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">More information about the SC-04-08 mailing list</a> 

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<TITLE> [SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration" </TITLE> pre { white-space: pre-wrap; /* css-2.1, curent FF, Opera, Safari */ } <H1>[SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration"</H1> philip newell <A HREF="mailto:sc-04-08%40standards.aes.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BSC-04-08%5D%20Comments%20on%20%22SMPTE-Modern-Calibration%22&In-Reply-To=%3CCAEEhACnmpwKpBUZ9zSEefyCmfxyasv9EsBsmfhE5B0ZL8tOBjw%40mail.gmail.com%3E" TITLE="[SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration"">philiprnewell at gmail.com </A> Tue Nov 4 12:57:13 MST 2014 <UL> <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="000252.html">[SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration" </A></li> <LI>Next message: <A HREF="000255.html">[SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration" </A></li> <LI> Messages sorted by: <a href="date.html#253">[ date ]</a> <a href="thread.html#253">[ thread ]</a> <a href="subject.html#253">[ subject ]</a> <a href="author.html#253">[ author ]</a> </LI> </UL> <HR>  <PRE>Dear Brian, As I suspected, attachments cannot be made, so perhaps you could deal with this. Best wishes, Philip On 4 November 2014 20:01, Brian McCarty <<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">bmccarty at coralseastudios.com</A>> wrote: > I believe that document can be attached. If not let me know and I'll add > the TC reference. > > Brian > > > > On 5 Nov 2014, at 4:59 am, philip newell <<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">philiprnewell at gmail.com</A>> > wrote: > > > > Dear Brian, > > > > You refer to the Cardiff IOA conference paper (as did > > the SMPTE report). Will this reflector accept attachments? If so I will > > send the paper for all to see (only 521 KB). > > > > I agree with Pete Soper that the X-curve is not really > > a subject for X215. However, if some people still think that it is a > > measurement artifact the situation needs to be dealt with. Otherwise, we > > will continue having to deal with such measurement myths and get nowhere. > > > > > > Best wishes, > > > > > > > > Philip > > > > > > > > On 4 November 2014 19:18, Brian McCarty <<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">bmccarty at coralseastudios.com</A>> > > wrote: > > > >> I agree with Mr. Soper that the objective of the Modern Calibration > >> document is to provide improved calibration methods. > >> > >> However I continue to believe that this is putting lipstick on a pig. > >> > >> As the B-Chain Report has so aptly demonstrated, along with the work of > >> Philip Newell et. al. in 2010, the dubbing rooms are not following the > >> X-curve or any other Standard to reference their rooms. In fact we’re > all > >> aware that there are dubbing rooms in Hollywood that are run off two > sets > >> of equalizers - the “X-curve alignment” equalizers and the “daily > mixing” > >> equalizers. > >> > >> As the audio coming out of the dubbing rooms no longer meets the > Standard, > >> it’s ludicrous to think that updating the calibration methodology in > S202 > >> will accomplish anything positive. It in fact will serve to re-cement a > >> theater system that’s broken. > >> > >> It is again my recommendation that this document not move forward, as > the > >> fundamentals it is built on are gone. S202 is no longer operative, it’s > >> broken. Proper aiming of the calibration microphones and looking at the > >> room on an FTA instead of an RTA won’t do one whit of good if the > product > >> they’re getting is coming out of studios who are making ad hoc > calibrations > >> of their dubbing rooms. > >> > >> The system of half-baked bandaids on problems as we find them doesn’t > >> work. What needs to happen is a logical analysis and implementation of > >> solutions, starting with SC-04-08 - calibration of sound systems in > rooms. > >> This is the first work that should be completed, which then the SMPTE > would > >> reference for the specifics necessary to meet a performance Standard for > >> cinema. > >> > >> Brian McCarty > >> > >> > >> > >>> On Nov 5, 2014, at 4:03 AM, Pete Soper <<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">psoper at meyersound.com</A>> wrote: > >>> > >>> Regardless of any individuals perceived/believed/rumored rationale > >> behind the X-curve, the fact remains that it is still the prescribed > >> response plot for audio frequency response in ST-202M and RP-200 which > are > >> still the current SMPTE standard documents and practices for cinema > B-chain > >> alignment and calibration. > >>> > >>> The objective of the modern calibration AHG is not to re-write these > >> standards, but rather to provide guidelines for using more commonly > >> available modern measurement tools and techniques such as dual channel > FFT > >> transfer function analysis in performing the setup and verification of > >> systems in accordance with SMPTE 202M and RP-200. As such, any arguments > >> for or against the X-curve are completely outside the scope of that > group- > >> and correspondingly, AES X215. > >>> > >>> > >>> However, with that said- I think it is important to point out that > >> several recent studies have illustrated that the matter of needing > sound to > >> project through a perforated screen results in a nominally "flat" > speaker > >> behind the screen results in very close to an "X-curve" response in > front > >> of the screen, this net effect on system response is repeatable and > >> verifiable with either 1/3 octave RTA or dual channel transfer function > >> analysis and despite claims by many to the contrary- is NOT just a > >> measurement artifact, it is simply what happens when sound is > transmitted > >> through a perforated barrier. > >>> > >>> The recently published B-chain theater test group report shows that > only > >> one of the dubbing stages having a woven fabric screen (as opposed to > >> perforated solid material) required a low-order HF roll off be imposed > to > >> meet the X-curve target, all of the perforated screen systems in the > study > >> had either no significant HF equalization or actually required boosting > of > >> some high frequencies in order to comply with the X-curve target window. > >>> > >>> -Pete Soper > >>> Meyer Sound Laboratories Inc. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> -----Original Message----- > >>> From: <A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">sc-04-08-bounces at standards.aes.org</A> [mailto: > >> <A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">sc-04-08-bounces at standards.aes.org</A>] On Behalf Of markyonge > >>> Sent: Tuesday, November 04, 2014 6:32 AM > >>> To: Working group on Measurement and equalization of sound systems in > >> rooms > >>> Cc: markyonge > >>> Subject: Re: [SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibr...

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<TITLE> [SC-04-08] Guides to standards development </TITLE> pre { white-space: pre-wrap; /* css-2.1, curent FF, Opera, Safari */ } <H1>[SC-04-08] Guides to standards development</H1> Bruce C. Olson <A HREF="mailto:sc-04-08%40standards.aes.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BSC-04-08%5D%20Guides%20to%20standards%20development&In-Reply-To=%3C005501cff86d%246d3cd260%2447b67720%24%40aes.org%3E" TITLE="[SC-04-08] Guides to standards development">bco at aes.org </A> Tue Nov 4 13:25:07 MST 2014 <UL> <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="000250.html">[SC-04-08] X215 Point of order </A></li> <LI>Next message: <A HREF="000273.html">[SC-04-08] AES-X219 Clarifications </A></li> <LI> Messages sorted by: <a href="date.html#254">[ date ]</a> <a href="thread.html#254">[ thread ]</a> <a href="subject.html#254">[ subject ]</a> <a href="author.html#254">[ author ]</a> </LI> </UL> <HR>  <PRE>Far too many people in this working group have not taken the time to read the simple guidelines that are published and waste a lot of their own time as well as others wondering about arcane matters such as how to communicate. If you have not already done so, please read the guides located here: <A HREF="http://www.aes.org/standards/development/guides.cfm">http://www.aes.org/standards/development/guides.cfm</A> , in particular the first document listed. Thank you, Bruce -- Bruce C. Olson Audio Engineering Society Standards Committee Chair phone: +1 (763) 493-5835 email: <A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">bco at aes.org</A> web: <A HREF="http://www.aes.org/standards/">http://www.aes.org/standards/</A> </PRE>  <HR> <UL>  <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="000250.html">[SC-04-08] X215 Point of order </A></li> <LI>Next message: <A HREF="000273.html">[SC-04-08] AES-X219 Clarifications </A></li> <LI> Messages sorted by: <a href="date.html#254">[ date ]</a> <a href="thread.html#254">[ thread ]</a> <a href="subject.html#254">[ subject ]</a> <a href="author.html#254">[ author ]</a> </LI> </UL> <hr> <a href="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">More information about the SC-04-08 mailing list</a> 

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<TITLE> [SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration" </TITLE> pre { white-space: pre-wrap; /* css-2.1, curent FF, Opera, Safari */ } <H1>[SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration"</H1> philip newell <A HREF="mailto:sc-04-08%40standards.aes.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BSC-04-08%5D%20Comments%20on%20%22SMPTE-Modern-Calibration%22&In-Reply-To=%3CCAEEhAC%3DZcCy4o9HxwFt0n7aodTw8TWLccygbnBGh6tVWPy4Wmg%40mail.gmail.com%3E" TITLE="[SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration"">philiprnewell at gmail.com </A> Tue Nov 4 14:12:57 MST 2014 <UL> <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="000253.html">[SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration" </A></li> <LI>Next message: <A HREF="000248.html">[SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration" </A></li> <LI> Messages sorted by: <a href="date.html#255">[ date ]</a> <a href="thread.html#255">[ thread ]</a> <a href="subject.html#255">[ subject ]</a> <a href="author.html#255">[ author ]</a> </LI> </UL> <HR>  <PRE>The aforementioned Cardiff document is now uploaded as - x215-PNewell141104-IOA2010.pdf Philip On 4 November 2014 20:57, philip newell <<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">philiprnewell at gmail.com</A>> wrote: > Dear Brian, > > As I suspected, attachments cannot be made, so > perhaps you could deal with this. > > > Best wishes, > > > > Philip > > > > > On 4 November 2014 20:01, Brian McCarty <<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">bmccarty at coralseastudios.com</A>> > wrote: > >> I believe that document can be attached. If not let me know and I'll add >> the TC reference. >> >> Brian >> >> >> > On 5 Nov 2014, at 4:59 am, philip newell <<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">philiprnewell at gmail.com</A>> >> wrote: >> > >> > Dear Brian, >> > >> > You refer to the Cardiff IOA conference paper (as did >> > the SMPTE report). Will this reflector accept attachments? If so I will >> > send the paper for all to see (only 521 KB). >> > >> > I agree with Pete Soper that the X-curve is not >> really >> > a subject for X215. However, if some people still think that it is a >> > measurement artifact the situation needs to be dealt with. Otherwise, we >> > will continue having to deal with such measurement myths and get >> nowhere. >> > >> > >> > Best wishes, >> > >> > >> > >> > Philip >> > >> > >> > >> > On 4 November 2014 19:18, Brian McCarty <<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">bmccarty at coralseastudios.com</A>> >> > wrote: >> > >> >> I agree with Mr. Soper that the objective of the Modern Calibration >> >> document is to provide improved calibration methods. >> >> >> >> However I continue to believe that this is putting lipstick on a pig. >> >> >> >> As the B-Chain Report has so aptly demonstrated, along with the work of >> >> Philip Newell et. al. in 2010, the dubbing rooms are not following the >> >> X-curve or any other Standard to reference their rooms. In fact we’re >> all >> >> aware that there are dubbing rooms in Hollywood that are run off two >> sets >> >> of equalizers - the “X-curve alignment” equalizers and the “daily >> mixing” >> >> equalizers. >> >> >> >> As the audio coming out of the dubbing rooms no longer meets the >> Standard, >> >> it’s ludicrous to think that updating the calibration methodology in >> S202 >> >> will accomplish anything positive. It in fact will serve to re-cement >> a >> >> theater system that’s broken. >> >> >> >> It is again my recommendation that this document not move forward, as >> the >> >> fundamentals it is built on are gone. S202 is no longer operative, >> it’s >> >> broken. Proper aiming of the calibration microphones and looking at >> the >> >> room on an FTA instead of an RTA won’t do one whit of good if the >> product >> >> they’re getting is coming out of studios who are making ad hoc >> calibrations >> >> of their dubbing rooms. >> >> >> >> The system of half-baked bandaids on problems as we find them doesn’t >> >> work. What needs to happen is a logical analysis and implementation of >> >> solutions, starting with SC-04-08 - calibration of sound systems in >> rooms. >> >> This is the first work that should be completed, which then the SMPTE >> would >> >> reference for the specifics necessary to meet a performance Standard >> for >> >> cinema. >> >> >> >> Brian McCarty >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>> On Nov 5, 2014, at 4:03 AM, Pete Soper <<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">psoper at meyersound.com</A>> wrote: >> >>> >> >>> Regardless of any individuals perceived/believed/rumored rationale >> >> behind the X-curve, the fact remains that it is still the prescribed >> >> response plot for audio frequency response in ST-202M and RP-200 which >> are >> >> still the current SMPTE standard documents and practices for cinema >> B-chain >> >> alignment and calibration. >> >>> >> >>> The objective of the modern calibration AHG is not to re-write these >> >> standards, but rather to provide guidelines for using more commonly >> >> available modern measurement tools and techniques such as dual >> channel FFT >> >> transfer function analysis in performing the setup and verification of >> >> systems in accordance with SMPTE 202M and RP-200. As such, any >> arguments >> >> for or against the X-curve are completely outside the scope of that >> group- >> >> and correspondingly, AES X215. >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> However, with that said- I think it is important to point out that >> >> several recent studies have illustrated that the matter of needing >> sound to >> >> project through a perforated screen results in a nominally "flat" >> speaker >> >> behind the screen results in very close to an "X-curve" response in >> front >> >> of the screen, this net effect on system response is repeatable and >> >> verifiable with either 1/3 octave RTA or dual channel transfer function >> >> analysis and despite claims by many to the contrary- is NOT just a >> >> measurement artifact, it is simply what happens when sound is >> transmitted >> >> through a perforated barrier. >> >>> >> >>> The recently published B-chain theater test group report shows that >> only >> >> one of the dubbing stages having a woven fabric screen (as opposed to >> >> perforated solid material) required a low-order HF roll off be imposed >> to >> >> meet the X-curve target, all of the perforated screen systems in the >> study >> >> had either no significant HF equalization or actually required >>...

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<TITLE> [SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration" </TITLE> pre { white-space: pre-wrap; /* css-2.1, curent FF, Opera, Safari */ } <H1>[SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration"</H1> Vessa, Brian <A HREF="mailto:sc-04-08%40standards.aes.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BSC-04-08%5D%20Comments%20on%20%22SMPTE-Modern-Calibration%22&In-Reply-To=%3C02BE568F-CB45-4500-AE36-E979D1EF4807%40spe.sony.com%3E" TITLE="[SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration"">Brian_Vessa at spe.sony.com </A> Tue Nov 4 14:53:13 MST 2014 <UL> <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="000248.html">[SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration" </A></li> <LI>Next message: <A HREF="000257.html">[SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration" </A></li> <LI> Messages sorted by: <a href="date.html#256">[ date ]</a> <a href="thread.html#256">[ thread ]</a> <a href="subject.html#256">[ subject ]</a> <a href="author.html#256">[ author ]</a> </LI> </UL> <HR>  <PRE>Hi John- SMPTE is already planning exactly this. Once we have the Pink Noise standard and Modern Calibration recommended practice finished, which will bring things to the best practices using current standards, we plan to move forward with new standards. We are purposely taking this path rather than launching directly into new standards in order to provide a stable launching pad and also because it is more likely the industry will adopt the new standards using this approach. If we just created new standards and handed them to the industry, it is unlikely they would receive wide adoption, so we are taking a step-wise approach. Therefore, I don't think it is time to create a new group to tackle new standards yet. Let's get thru this first phase of work, which I think is on track to go to publication early next year. Cheers, Brian Brian Vessa Executive Director, Digital Audio Mastering Sony Pictures Entertainment 310-244-3306 office 310-779-9938 cell On Nov 4, 2014, at 11:41 AM, John Woodgate <<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">jmw at jmwa.demon.co.uk</A><mailto:<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">jmw at jmwa.demon.co.uk</A>>> wrote: In message <<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">2BE563BCBE473946A8E72AE261D4F64B0177FD82D8 at XCHG1.ms.msli.com</A><<A HREF="http://XCHG1.ms.msli.com">http://XCHG1.ms.msli.com</A>>>, dated Tue, 4 Nov 2014, Pete Soper <<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">psoper at meyersound.com</A><mailto:<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">psoper at meyersound.com</A>>> writes: Regardless of any individuals perceived/believed/rumored rationale behind the X-curve, the fact remains that it is still the prescribed response plot for audio frequency response in ST-202M and RP-200 which are still the current SMPTE standard documents and practices for cinema B-chain alignment and calibration. Yes, but when you let slip the dogs of war... The objective of the modern calibration AHG is not to re-write these standards, but rather to provide guidelines for using more commonly available modern measurement tools and techniques such as dual channel FFT transfer function analysis in performing the setup and verification of systems in accordance with SMPTE 202M and RP-200. As such, any arguments for or against the X-curve are completely outside the scope of that group- and correspondingly, AES X215. ... you can't really expect AES members to feel bound by the terms of reference of the SMPTE ad hoc group. Well, you can expect it, but it won't happen. Equally, AES can't necessarily expect SMPTE to withdraw some standards now, leaving a hiatus while newer and better are developed. I suspect all the argy-bargy here is simply due to that; AES wants to move the whole room measurements scenario into the 21st century, but SMPTE has some standards that need maintaining and that's their immediate priority. So, I suggest a compromise, which by definition isn't perfect. - AES members work on X-215, strictly under SMPTE terms of reference, i.e. nothing out of scope, however imperfect the result is in actual fact; - SC-04-08 starts a new project (no, I won't sponsor it, I don't know enough about the subject to lead the project; what I know about is how to get the standards we want, with least grief) on assessing or evaluating rooms according to best current knowledge. This work may be shared with SMPTE at some stage, with the object of helping SMPTE update or replace those standards that are no longer optimum. -- OOO - Own Opinions Only. With best wishes. See www.jmwa.demon.co.uk<<A HREF="http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk">http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk</A>> Quid faciamus nisi sit? John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK _______________________________________________ SC-04-08 mailing list <A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">SC-04-08 at standards.aes.org</A><mailto:<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">SC-04-08 at standards.aes.org</A>> <<A HREF="http://standards.aes.org/sc.cfm?ID=91">http://standards.aes.org/sc.cfm?ID=91</A>> </PRE>  <HR> <UL>  <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="000248.html">[SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration" </A></li> <LI>Next message: <A HREF="000257.html">[SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration" </A></li> <LI> Messages sorted by: <a href="date.html#256">[ date ]</a> <a href="thread.html#256">[ thread ]</a> <a href="subject.html#256">[ subject ]</a> <a href="author.html#256">[ author ]</a> </LI> </UL> <hr> <a href="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">More information about the SC-04-08 mailing list</a> 

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<TITLE> [SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration" </TITLE> pre { white-space: pre-wrap; /* css-2.1, curent FF, Opera, Safari */ } <H1>[SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration"</H1> John Woodgate <A HREF="mailto:sc-04-08%40standards.aes.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BSC-04-08%5D%20Comments%20on%20%22SMPTE-Modern-Calibration%22&In-Reply-To=%3CLetjaPWR%24UWUFw7Y%40jmwa.demon.co.uk%3E" TITLE="[SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration"">jmw at jmwa.demon.co.uk </A> Tue Nov 4 15:14:41 MST 2014 <UL> <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="000256.html">[SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration" </A></li> <LI>Next message: <A HREF="000258.html">[SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration" </A></li> <LI> Messages sorted by: <a href="date.html#257">[ date ]</a> <a href="thread.html#257">[ thread ]</a> <a href="subject.html#257">[ subject ]</a> <a href="author.html#257">[ author ]</a> </LI> </UL> <HR>  <PRE>In message <<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">02BE568F-CB45-4500-AE36-E979D1EF4807 at spe.sony.com</A>>, dated Tue, 4 Nov 2014, "Vessa, Brian" <<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">Brian_Vessa at spe.sony.com</A>> writes: >MPTE is already planning exactly this. Once we have the Pink Noise >standard and Modern Calibration recommended practice finished, which >will bring things to the best practices using current standards, we >plan to move forward with new standards. We are purposely taking this >path rather than launching directly into new standards in order to >provide a stable launching pad and also because it is more likely the >industry will adopt the new standards using this approach. If we just >created new standards and handed them to the industry, it is unlikely >they would receive wide adoption, so we are taking a step-wise approach. OK, that's your decision. Maintenance first, innovation later. Reasonable. > >Therefore, I don't think it is time to create a new group to tackle new >standards yet. Not in SMPTE, for sure, because you've decided not to do that. But that doesn't mean that AES SC-04-08 is also barred from starting a new project, if that's what the members want to do, and it seems like they do want to do that. There is no need to disagree: it's not an 'either/or' situation. > Let's get thru this first phase of work, which I think is on track to >go to publication early next year. Sure. Full speed ahead! -- OOO - Own Opinions Only. With best wishes. See www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Quid faciamus nisi sit? John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK </PRE>  <HR> <UL>  <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="000256.html">[SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration" </A></li> <LI>Next message: <A HREF="000258.html">[SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration" </A></li> <LI> Messages sorted by: <a href="date.html#257">[ date ]</a> <a href="thread.html#257">[ thread ]</a> <a href="subject.html#257">[ subject ]</a> <a href="author.html#257">[ author ]</a> </LI> </UL> <hr> <a href="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">More information about the SC-04-08 mailing list</a> 

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<TITLE> [SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration" </TITLE> pre { white-space: pre-wrap; /* css-2.1, curent FF, Opera, Safari */ } <H1>[SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration"</H1> David Josephson <A HREF="mailto:sc-04-08%40standards.aes.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BSC-04-08%5D%20Comments%20on%20%22SMPTE-Modern-Calibration%22&In-Reply-To=%3C54595499.3030501%40josephson.com%3E" TITLE="[SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration"">dlj at josephson.com </A> Tue Nov 4 15:35:05 MST 2014 <UL> <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="000257.html">[SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration" </A></li> <LI>Next message: <A HREF="000247.html">[SC-04-08] X215 Point of order </A></li> <LI> Messages sorted by: <a href="date.html#258">[ date ]</a> <a href="thread.html#258">[ thread ]</a> <a href="subject.html#258">[ subject ]</a> <a href="author.html#258">[ author ]</a> </LI> </UL> <HR>  <PRE>On 11/4/14 1:53 PM, Vessa, Brian wrote: > Once we have the Pink Noise > standard and Modern Calibration recommended practice finished, which > will bring things to the best practices using current standards, we > plan to move forward with new standards. We are purposely taking > this path rather than launching directly into new standards in order > to provide a stable launching pad and also because it is more likely > the industry will adopt the new standards using this approach. If we > just created new standards and handed them to the industry, it is > unlikely they would receive wide adoption, so we are taking a > step-wise approach. > > Therefore, I don't think it is time to create a new group to tackle > new standards yet. Let's get thru this first phase of work, which I > think is on track to go to publication early next year. The group is already formed, this is it (within the AES Standards Committee, anyway.) We very much need to get a consensus on current practice before we go off blazing new trails. We are working on at least one proposal for a new project, and there will need to be many more, with the work broken into manageable sub-tasks if we are to develop an approach that will be useful to the industry. Measurement standards need to be separate from performance standards, and it's a dead end to try to mandate behavior with a voluntary standard. SC-04-08's scope is wider than just cinema. We're happy to support SMPTE's work, but we would like to proceed deliberately so that these same issues that apply to program content in other venues besides cinema can be addressed too. My closing comment on the X215 document is that the language about reaching a desired response curve should be limited, and the discussion focused on reaching consensus about the measurement methods. David Josephson Chair, SC-04 </PRE>  <HR> <UL>  <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="000257.html">[SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration" </A></li> <LI>Next message: <A HREF="000247.html">[SC-04-08] X215 Point of order </A></li> <LI> Messages sorted by: <a href="date.html#258">[ date ]</a> <a href="thread.html#258">[ thread ]</a> <a href="subject.html#258">[ subject ]</a> <a href="author.html#258">[ author ]</a> </LI> </UL> <hr> <a href="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">More information about the SC-04-08 mailing list</a> 

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<TITLE> [SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration" </TITLE> pre { white-space: pre-wrap; /* css-2.1, curent FF, Opera, Safari */ } <H1>[SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration"</H1> Brian Long <A HREF="mailto:sc-04-08%40standards.aes.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BSC-04-08%5D%20Comments%20on%20%22SMPTE-Modern-Calibration%22&In-Reply-To=%3C8DBDC6D514F3F44B99EA56F331381FE1C32EA9F5%40mailbox10.lucas.alllucas.com%3E" TITLE="[SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration"">blong at skysound.com </A> Tue Nov 4 19:00:56 MST 2014 <UL> <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="000249.html">[SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration" </A></li> <LI>Next message: <A HREF="000260.html">[SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration" </A></li> <LI> Messages sorted by: <a href="date.html#259">[ date ]</a> <a href="thread.html#259">[ thread ]</a> <a href="subject.html#259">[ subject ]</a> <a href="author.html#259">[ author ]</a> </LI> </UL> <HR>  <PRE>1. The results of the report contradict Mr. McCarty's statement: "As the B-Chain Report has so aptly demonstrated, along with the work of Philip Newell et. al. in 2010, the dubbing rooms are not following the X-curve or any other Standard to reference their rooms." The report clearly shows the high end roll off which can be compared to the curve. The report is also done in a higher resolution than third octave smoothing to better allow a compare and contrast of the room responses. 2. ".... we're all aware that there are dubbing rooms in Hollywood that are run off two sets of equalizers - the "X-curve alignment" equalizers and the "daily mixing" equalizers. " This is a dangerous statement at best. I have not seen the data that shows this. If there are indeed these places then how do we know that the daily mixing EQ is not within the X curve tolerances but with slightly different filters applied for any number of reasons? I can certainly say that this statement of rumor is NOT the case at the majors or a number of the major independents. If there is data to the contrary rather than rumor I am open to seeing it. 3. Laboratory tests, the survey of technicians, and the in room tests by SMPTE as part of this work indicate the ramifications that nuisance variables have in the equation. Limiting these and providing advice on how to avoid them is key regardless of any target curve in the room. We could write a standard at this point that says set the room response to flat, the ABZ curve, etc, it would not matter unless recommendations are in place to limit the nuisance variables. 4. SMPTE purposefully set forth a path of discovery to assess the situation to discover what was going on in the field, the condition of venues in the field, and the knowledge level in the field before deciding to tackle any additional standards work. It was decided that in recognition of how long new work would take any clarification or limiting of the nuisance variables and variation as found in the field at this time would be helpful and key to preparing new standards. I would encourage the members of this committee to take the time to read the report and form their own analysis and opinions. Regards, Brian Long -----Original Message----- From: <A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">sc-04-08-bounces at standards.aes.org</A> [mailto:<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">sc-04-08-bounces at standards.aes.org</A>] On Behalf Of John Woodgate Sent: Tuesday, November 04, 2014 11:44 AM To: Working group on Measurement and equalization of sound systems in rooms Subject: Re: [SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration" In message <<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">8DBDC6D514F3F44B99EA56F331381FE1C32E84F0 at mailbox10.lucas.alllucas.com</A>>, dated Tue, 4 Nov 2014, Brian Long <<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">blong at skysound.com</A>> writes: >I disagree with a number of statements made in the post included below >and would encourage the members of this group to review the report and >data in it, along with the Newell et al. research (and supporting >sources), rather than relying the summary statements presented. With respect, I don't think that is helpful. WHAT don't you agree with? If we don't know that, we are really chasing a wild goose through all the posts, wondering which statements you accept and which you do not. -- OOO - Own Opinions Only. With best wishes. See www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Quid faciamus nisi sit? John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK _______________________________________________ SC-04-08 mailing list <A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">SC-04-08 at standards.aes.org</A> <<A HREF="http://standards.aes.org/sc.cfm?ID=91">http://standards.aes.org/sc.cfm?ID=91</A>> I agree with Mr. Soper that the objective of the Modern Calibration document is to provide improved calibration methods. However I continue to believe that this is putting lipstick on a pig. As the B-Chain Report has so aptly demonstrated, along with the work of Philip Newell et. al. in 2010, the dubbing rooms are not following the X-curve or any other Standard to reference their rooms. In fact we're all aware that there are dubbing rooms in Hollywood that are run off two sets of equalizers - the "X-curve alignment" equalizers and the "daily mixing" equalizers. As the audio coming out of the dubbing rooms no longer meets the Standard, it's ludicrous to think that updating the calibration methodology in S202 will accomplish anything positive. It in fact will serve to re-cement a theater system that's broken. It is again my recommendation that this document not move forward, as the fundamentals it is built on are gone. S202 is no longer operative, it's broken. Proper aiming of the calibration microphones and looking at the room on an FTA instead of an RTA won't do one whit of good if the product they're getting is coming out of studios who are making ad hoc calibrations of their dubbing rooms. The system of half-baked bandaids on problems as we find them doesn't work. What needs to happen is a logical analysis and implementation of solutions, starting with SC-04-08 - calibration of sound systems in rooms. This is the first work that should be completed, which then the SMPTE would reference for the specifics necessary to meet a performance Standard for cinema. Brian McCarty </PRE>  <HR> <UL>  <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="000249.html">[SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration" </A></li> <LI>Next message: <A HREF="000260.html">[SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration" </A></li> <LI> Messages sorted by: <a href="date.html#259">[ date ]</a> <a href="thread.html#259">[ thread ]</a> <a href="subject.html#259">[ subject ]</a> <a href="author.html#259">[ author ]</a> </LI> </UL> <hr> <a href="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">More information about the SC-04-08 mailing list</a> 

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<TITLE> [SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration" </TITLE> pre { white-space: pre-wrap; /* css-2.1, curent FF, Opera, Safari */ } <H1>[SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration"</H1> markyonge <A HREF="mailto:sc-04-08%40standards.aes.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BSC-04-08%5D%20Comments%20on%20%22SMPTE-Modern-Calibration%22&In-Reply-To=%3CC9013EED-6984-4890-AA04-9116F4A0EBB3%40aes.org%3E" TITLE="[SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration"">mark.yonge at aes.org </A> Fri Nov 7 09:29:46 MST 2014 <UL> <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="000259.html">[SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration" </A></li> <LI>Next message: <A HREF="000261.html">[SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration" </A></li> <LI> Messages sorted by: <a href="date.html#260">[ date ]</a> <a href="thread.html#260">[ thread ]</a> <a href="subject.html#260">[ subject ]</a> <a href="author.html#260">[ author ]</a> </LI> </UL> <HR>  <PRE>Dear SC-04-08, In my note of 2014-11-04, I stated, "The X-curve is a measurement artifact and not an audio roll-off:. Philip Newell then asserted: "*It is an audio roll-off.*" Let me explore this statement a little more, if I may. I have been puzzled by this assertion - a roll-off is not specified in the standards (SMPTE ST 202 or ISO 2969) that define the X-curve, nor can I find any argument in favour of a non-flat frequency response for modern films in modern auditoria. Where has this idea come from? Then it occurred to me that a person calibrating an inappropriate room to ST 202 would be faced with a dilemma. He would be forced to conclude either: a) The measurement method is correct, but the room sounds dull, therefore the measurement method must be requiring a roll-off in the audio path. Or, b) The measurement method is incorrect in these circumstances because it can't achieve a flat frequency response for direct sound. The document, "Cinema sound: a new look at old concepts" seems to embrace conclusion 'a' as a starting point. It shows results for 20 rooms and implies that the room sizes varied significantly, but ignores the effect this would have on a classic X-curve calibration. It appears to consider the nominal X-curve as a rigid template that must be applied in the same way to all rooms regardless of size or acoustic absorbtion. While deprecating the X-curve in general, it fails to recognise the systematic flexibility in ST 202 (see * below). An engineering standard is not a law to be obeyed even if it makes no clear sense. If a standard no longer fits its purpose, then it is time to change it a better standard that does. Given that the range of cinema sizes and reverberation characteristics has expanded greatly since the late 1970s, applying the ST 202 X-curve now needs more care, skill, and experience, not less. A new RP requiring (in effect) semi-skilled technicians to apply the ST 202 X-curve in a doctrinaire way will tend to formalize dull-sounding small cinemas, which is the exact opposite of what we are seeking to achieve. The audiences that pay all our wages will not thank us for this. I would like to encourage this group to consider conclusion 'b', and that the X-curve in ST 202, used outside its originally-intended context, may simply not be useful for many modern cinemas and the modern cinema-equipment business. A new measurement method is required rather urgently, I think. * In "x215-PNewell141104-IOA2010.pdf", the only reference for the X-curve is to Ioan Allen's 2006 paper in the SMPTE Journal, and it avoids mentioning ST 202 entirely. This is a shame, because the important qualifications in ST 202 clause 6.2, figure 5, annex A.5e and annex A.5f make clear that the single curve shown as figure 1 in "x215-PNewell141104-IOA2010.pdf" is only valid for a medium sized theater (with between, say, 200 and 500 seats). Correction values are proposed for larger and smaller rooms that will change the shape of the X-curve that is approprate for them. The survey of room responses in "x215-PNewell141104-IOA2010.pdf", is interesting. The range of variation in the 2/3-distance RTA curves shown for these 20 rooms was, in my view, wide. If you take the nominal "medium sized theater" curve as a fixed reference for all cases, then 9 appear to be reasonable, while 5 appear bright, 5 appear dull, and 1 just seems odd (cine8). Without further information, that's over 50% apparently miscalibrated. However, this paper does not indicate the size of the rooms and so it is not possible to correlate the room size with the curve produced on an RTA, which might have been helpful. Philip - in summary, I am agreeing with your concluding remark that, "... it seems to be clear that there is ample justification for a thorough reassessment of the current cinema alignment procedures." But you haven't proved that the ST 202 X-curve requires a roll-off. Sincerely, Mark Yonge vice chair, SC-04-08 On 2014-11-04, I wrote: > Dear SC-04-08, > > This discussion of the SMPTE ST 202 X-curve, developed in the late 1970s, would only be of arcane historical interest, except for the suggestion that it might be perpetuated in the Modern Calibration draft using a different measurement technique. > > In the late 1970s I aligned many cinemas for Dolby Laboratories, who were active in developing the X-curve as a pragmatic tool to calibrate the B-chains of mix rooms and cinemas. The intent was to take full advantage of the essentially-flat A-chain frequency response in Dolby Stereo films. The measurement equipment that was available seemed like rocket science at the time, but now looks very dated. The measurement technique produced reasonably consistent results, but relied heavily on some working assumptions, many of which are also now outdated. > > The following assertions are fully supported by SMPTE ST 202:2010 (and its close cousin, ISO 2969). I am happy to go into this in more detail, developing the presentation I gave to SC-04-08 in Rome, May 2013. Meanwhile: > > • The purpose of the X-curve is to predict a flat frequency response for direct (first-arrival) sound; > • The X-curve is a measurement artifact and not an audio roll-off; > • The X-curve represents a display on a real-time audio analyser (RTA), comprising a flat spectral component of the direct sound overlaid at lower frequencies by a higher-amplitude reverberation contribution from the cinema auditorium. (The direct sound comprises instantaneous energy at the microphone, while the reverberant energy has been integrating for perhaps as long as a second in a "typical" cinema, building up to a higher amplitude). > > The X-curve is directly useful ONLY under the following circumstances: > • A "typical" cinema - in the 1970s this meant between approximately 200 and 2000 seats with the typical reverberation characteristics of a vaudeville theatre; > • Continuous pink noise - other stimuli exist that will not produce the same reverberation component and will not produce a satisfactory X-curve display; > • 1/3-octave real-time audio analyser (RTA). > > The X-curve is NOT useful under the following circumstances: > • Small cinemas, screening rooms, preview theatres, music studio control rooms, home theatres; > • Very large cinemas; > • Open-air cinemas, sports stadia; > • Any cinema acoustically treated to reduce its reverberation; > • Discontinuous test signals; > • Any spectrum-analysis tool that isn't a 1/3-octave RTA. > > In such circumstances where the X-curve is not useful, the X-curve should be ignored and the best available measurement technique should be used to produce a flat frequency response for direct (first-arrival) sound arriving at a typical audience position. > > Let me be clear: An auditorium equalised to the X-curve inappropriately is very likely to lack high-frequency energy and will sound dull. > > I do not believe that references to the X-curve should be continued in this Modern Calibration draft now that the measurement tools and cinema acoustics have changed sufficiently to take its application out of the main stream - it is, in effect, obsolete. > > Correspondence on this reflector has invoked various alternative explanations for the X-curve, referring to external papers unavailable to this group. If these papers contain some engineering wisdom relevant for this discussion, then it would be appropriate to post those papers to this group AND to identify the relevant text with reference to the corresponding clause numbers in ST 202. > > A bit of rigour would be appropriate - as engineers, we have a duty to keep science and folklore se...

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<TITLE> [SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration" </TITLE> pre { white-space: pre-wrap; /* css-2.1, curent FF, Opera, Safari */ } <H1>[SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration"</H1> Brian Long <A HREF="mailto:sc-04-08%40standards.aes.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BSC-04-08%5D%20Comments%20on%20%22SMPTE-Modern-Calibration%22&In-Reply-To=%3C8DBDC6D514F3F44B99EA56F331381FE1C32E84F0%40mailbox10.lucas.alllucas.com%3E" TITLE="[SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration"">blong at skysound.com </A> Tue Nov 4 11:57:37 MST 2014 <UL> <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="000241.html">[SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration" </A></li> <LI>Next message: <A HREF="000249.html">[SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration" </A></li> <LI> Messages sorted by: <a href="date.html#242">[ date ]</a> <a href="thread.html#242">[ thread ]</a> <a href="subject.html#242">[ subject ]</a> <a href="author.html#242">[ author ]</a> </LI> </UL> <HR>  <PRE>I disagree with a number of statements made in the post included below and would encourage the members of this group to review the report and data in it, along with the Newell et al. research (and supporting sources), rather than relying the summary statements presented. Regards, Brian Long -----Original Message----- From: <A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">sc-04-08-bounces at standards.aes.org</A> [mailto:<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">sc-04-08-bounces at standards.aes.org</A>] On Behalf Of Brian McCarty Sent: Tuesday, November 04, 2014 10:19 AM To: Working group on Measurement and equalization of sound systems in rooms Subject: Re: [SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration" I agree with Mr. Soper that the objective of the Modern Calibration document is to provide improved calibration methods. However I continue to believe that this is putting lipstick on a pig. As the B-Chain Report has so aptly demonstrated, along with the work of Philip Newell et. al. in 2010, the dubbing rooms are not following the X-curve or any other Standard to reference their rooms. In fact we’re all aware that there are dubbing rooms in Hollywood that are run off two sets of equalizers - the “X-curve alignment” equalizers and the “daily mixing” equalizers. As the audio coming out of the dubbing rooms no longer meets the Standard, it’s ludicrous to think that updating the calibration methodology in S202 will accomplish anything positive. It in fact will serve to re-cement a theater system that’s broken. It is again my recommendation that this document not move forward, as the fundamentals it is built on are gone. S202 is no longer operative, it’s broken. Proper aiming of the calibration microphones and looking at the room on an FTA instead of an RTA won’t do one whit of good if the product they’re getting is coming out of studios who are making ad hoc calibrations of their dubbing rooms. The system of half-baked bandaids on problems as we find them doesn’t work. What needs to happen is a logical analysis and implementation of solutions, starting with SC-04-08 - calibration of sound systems in rooms. This is the first work that should be completed, which then the SMPTE would reference for the specifics necessary to meet a performance Standard for cinema. Brian McCarty > On Nov 5, 2014, at 4:03 AM, Pete Soper <<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">psoper at meyersound.com</A>> wrote: > > Regardless of any individuals perceived/believed/rumored rationale behind the X-curve, the fact remains that it is still the prescribed response plot for audio frequency response in ST-202M and RP-200 which are still the current SMPTE standard documents and practices for cinema B-chain alignment and calibration. > > The objective of the modern calibration AHG is not to re-write these standards, but rather to provide guidelines for using more commonly available modern measurement tools and techniques such as dual channel FFT transfer function analysis in performing the setup and verification of systems in accordance with SMPTE 202M and RP-200. As such, any arguments for or against the X-curve are completely outside the scope of that group- and correspondingly, AES X215. > > > However, with that said- I think it is important to point out that several recent studies have illustrated that the matter of needing sound to project through a perforated screen results in a nominally "flat" speaker behind the screen results in very close to an "X-curve" response in front of the screen, this net effect on system response is repeatable and verifiable with either 1/3 octave RTA or dual channel transfer function analysis and despite claims by many to the contrary- is NOT just a measurement artifact, it is simply what happens when sound is transmitted through a perforated barrier. > > The recently published B-chain theater test group report shows that only one of the dubbing stages having a woven fabric screen (as opposed to perforated solid material) required a low-order HF roll off be imposed to meet the X-curve target, all of the perforated screen systems in the study had either no significant HF equalization or actually required boosting of some high frequencies in order to comply with the X-curve target window. > > -Pete Soper > Meyer Sound Laboratories Inc. > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: <A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">sc-04-08-bounces at standards.aes.org</A> [mailto:<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">sc-04-08-bounces at standards.aes.org</A>] On Behalf Of markyonge > Sent: Tuesday, November 04, 2014 6:32 AM > To: Working group on Measurement and equalization of sound systems in rooms > Cc: markyonge > Subject: Re: [SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration" > > Dear SC-04-08, > > This discussion of the SMPTE ST 202 X-curve, developed in the late 1970s, would only be of arcane historical interest, except for the suggestion that it might be perpetuated in the Modern Calibration draft using a different measurement technique. > > In the late 1970s I aligned many cinemas for Dolby Laboratories, who were active in developing the X-curve as a pragmatic tool to calibrate the B-chains of mix rooms and cinemas. The intent was to take full advantage of the essentially-flat A-chain frequency response in Dolby Stereo films. The measurement equipment that was available seemed like rocket science at the time, but now looks very dated. The measurement technique produced reasonably consistent results, but relied heavily on some working assumptions, many of which are also now outdated. > > The following assertions are fully supported by SMPTE ST 202:2010 (and its close cousin, ISO 2969). I am happy to go into this in more detail, developing the presentation I gave to SC-04-08 in Rome, May 2013. Meanwhile: > > • The purpose of the X-curve is to predict a flat frequency response for direct (first-arrival) sound; > • The X-curve is a measurement artifact and not an audio roll-off; > • The X-curve represents a display on a real-time audio analyser (RTA), comprising a flat spectral component of the direct sound overlaid at lower frequencies by a higher-amplitude reverberation contribution from the cinema auditorium. (The direct sound comprises instantaneous energy at the microphone, while the reverberant energy has been integrating for perhaps as long as a second in a "typical" cinema, building up to a higher amplitude). > > The X-curve is directly useful ONLY under the following circumstances: > • A "typical" cinema - in the 1970s this meant between approximately 200 and 2000 seats with the typical reverberation characteristics of a vaudeville theatre; > • Continuous pink noise - other stimuli exist that will not produce the same reverberation component and will not produce a satisfactory X-curve display; > • 1/3-octave real-time audio analyser (RTA). > > The X-curve is NOT useful under the following circumstances: > • Small cinemas, screening rooms, preview theatres, music studio control rooms, home theatres; > • Very large cinemas; > • Open-air cinemas, sports stadia; > • Any cinema acoustically treated to reduce its reverberation; > • Discontinuous test signals; > • Any spectrum-analysis tool that isn't a 1/3-octave RTA. > > I...

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<TITLE> [SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration" </TITLE> pre { white-space: pre-wrap; /* css-2.1, curent FF, Opera, Safari */ } <H1>[SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration"</H1> Brian McCarty <A HREF="mailto:sc-04-08%40standards.aes.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BSC-04-08%5D%20Comments%20on%20%22SMPTE-Modern-Calibration%22&In-Reply-To=%3CA6948C0C-8407-41F3-B5A1-EF33746705D5%40coralseastudios.com%3E" TITLE="[SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration"">bmccarty at coralseastudios.com </A> Tue Nov 4 11:18:34 MST 2014 <UL> <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="000240.html">[SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration" </A></li> <LI>Next message: <A HREF="000242.html">[SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration" </A></li> <LI> Messages sorted by: <a href="date.html#241">[ date ]</a> <a href="thread.html#241">[ thread ]</a> <a href="subject.html#241">[ subject ]</a> <a href="author.html#241">[ author ]</a> </LI> </UL> <HR>  <PRE>I agree with Mr. Soper that the objective of the Modern Calibration document is to provide improved calibration methods. However I continue to believe that this is putting lipstick on a pig. As the B-Chain Report has so aptly demonstrated, along with the work of Philip Newell et. al. in 2010, the dubbing rooms are not following the X-curve or any other Standard to reference their rooms. In fact we’re all aware that there are dubbing rooms in Hollywood that are run off two sets of equalizers - the “X-curve alignment” equalizers and the “daily mixing” equalizers. As the audio coming out of the dubbing rooms no longer meets the Standard, it’s ludicrous to think that updating the calibration methodology in S202 will accomplish anything positive. It in fact will serve to re-cement a theater system that’s broken. It is again my recommendation that this document not move forward, as the fundamentals it is built on are gone. S202 is no longer operative, it’s broken. Proper aiming of the calibration microphones and looking at the room on an FTA instead of an RTA won’t do one whit of good if the product they’re getting is coming out of studios who are making ad hoc calibrations of their dubbing rooms. The system of half-baked bandaids on problems as we find them doesn’t work. What needs to happen is a logical analysis and implementation of solutions, starting with SC-04-08 - calibration of sound systems in rooms. This is the first work that should be completed, which then the SMPTE would reference for the specifics necessary to meet a performance Standard for cinema. Brian McCarty > On Nov 5, 2014, at 4:03 AM, Pete Soper <<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">psoper at meyersound.com</A>> wrote: > > Regardless of any individuals perceived/believed/rumored rationale behind the X-curve, the fact remains that it is still the prescribed response plot for audio frequency response in ST-202M and RP-200 which are still the current SMPTE standard documents and practices for cinema B-chain alignment and calibration. > > The objective of the modern calibration AHG is not to re-write these standards, but rather to provide guidelines for using more commonly available modern measurement tools and techniques such as dual channel FFT transfer function analysis in performing the setup and verification of systems in accordance with SMPTE 202M and RP-200. As such, any arguments for or against the X-curve are completely outside the scope of that group- and correspondingly, AES X215. > > > However, with that said- I think it is important to point out that several recent studies have illustrated that the matter of needing sound to project through a perforated screen results in a nominally "flat" speaker behind the screen results in very close to an "X-curve" response in front of the screen, this net effect on system response is repeatable and verifiable with either 1/3 octave RTA or dual channel transfer function analysis and despite claims by many to the contrary- is NOT just a measurement artifact, it is simply what happens when sound is transmitted through a perforated barrier. > > The recently published B-chain theater test group report shows that only one of the dubbing stages having a woven fabric screen (as opposed to perforated solid material) required a low-order HF roll off be imposed to meet the X-curve target, all of the perforated screen systems in the study had either no significant HF equalization or actually required boosting of some high frequencies in order to comply with the X-curve target window. > > -Pete Soper > Meyer Sound Laboratories Inc. > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: <A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">sc-04-08-bounces at standards.aes.org</A> [mailto:<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">sc-04-08-bounces at standards.aes.org</A>] On Behalf Of markyonge > Sent: Tuesday, November 04, 2014 6:32 AM > To: Working group on Measurement and equalization of sound systems in rooms > Cc: markyonge > Subject: Re: [SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration" > > Dear SC-04-08, > > This discussion of the SMPTE ST 202 X-curve, developed in the late 1970s, would only be of arcane historical interest, except for the suggestion that it might be perpetuated in the Modern Calibration draft using a different measurement technique. > > In the late 1970s I aligned many cinemas for Dolby Laboratories, who were active in developing the X-curve as a pragmatic tool to calibrate the B-chains of mix rooms and cinemas. The intent was to take full advantage of the essentially-flat A-chain frequency response in Dolby Stereo films. The measurement equipment that was available seemed like rocket science at the time, but now looks very dated. The measurement technique produced reasonably consistent results, but relied heavily on some working assumptions, many of which are also now outdated. > > The following assertions are fully supported by SMPTE ST 202:2010 (and its close cousin, ISO 2969). I am happy to go into this in more detail, developing the presentation I gave to SC-04-08 in Rome, May 2013. Meanwhile: > > • The purpose of the X-curve is to predict a flat frequency response for direct (first-arrival) sound; > • The X-curve is a measurement artifact and not an audio roll-off; > • The X-curve represents a display on a real-time audio analyser (RTA), comprising a flat spectral component of the direct sound overlaid at lower frequencies by a higher-amplitude reverberation contribution from the cinema auditorium. (The direct sound comprises instantaneous energy at the microphone, while the reverberant energy has been integrating for perhaps as long as a second in a "typical" cinema, building up to a higher amplitude). > > The X-curve is directly useful ONLY under the following circumstances: > • A "typical" cinema - in the 1970s this meant between approximately 200 and 2000 seats with the typical reverberation characteristics of a vaudeville theatre; > • Continuous pink noise - other stimuli exist that will not produce the same reverberation component and will not produce a satisfactory X-curve display; > • 1/3-octave real-time audio analyser (RTA). > > The X-curve is NOT useful under the following circumstances: > • Small cinemas, screening rooms, preview theatres, music studio control rooms, home theatres; > • Very large cinemas; > • Open-air cinemas, sports stadia; > • Any cinema acoustically treated to reduce its reverberation; > • Discontinuous test signals; > • Any spectrum-analysis tool that isn't a 1/3-octave RTA. > > In such circumstances where the X-curve is not useful, the X-curve should be ignored and the best available measurement technique should be used to produce a flat frequency response for direct (first-arrival) sound arriving at a typical audience position. > > Let me be clear: An auditorium equalised to the X-curve inappropriately is very likely to lack high-frequency energy and will sound dull. > > I do not believe that references to the X-curve should be continued in this Modern Calibration draft now that the measurement tools and cinema acoustics have changed sufficiently to take its application out of the main stream - it is, in effect, obsolete. > > Correspondence on this reflector has invoked ...

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<TITLE> [SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration" </TITLE> pre { white-space: pre-wrap; /* css-2.1, curent FF, Opera, Safari */ } <H1>[SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration"</H1> philip newell <A HREF="mailto:sc-04-08%40standards.aes.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BSC-04-08%5D%20Comments%20on%20%22SMPTE-Modern-Calibration%22&In-Reply-To=%3CCAEEhAC%3DjX%2BA%3Dd%2Bxg96rzOQpvyK18HsDj7tfKh%2BFh_NQbVAOgFA%40mail.gmail.com%3E" TITLE="[SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration"">philiprnewell at gmail.com </A> Tue Nov 4 11:59:47 MST 2014 <UL> <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="000268.html">[SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration" </A></li> <LI>Next message: <A HREF="000244.html">[SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration" </A></li> <LI> Messages sorted by: <a href="date.html#243">[ date ]</a> <a href="thread.html#243">[ thread ]</a> <a href="subject.html#243">[ subject ]</a> <a href="author.html#243">[ author ]</a> </LI> </UL> <HR>  <PRE>Dear Brian, You refer to the Cardiff IOA conference paper (as did the SMPTE report). Will this reflector accept attachments? If so I will send the paper for all to see (only 521 KB). I agree with Pete Soper that the X-curve is not really a subject for X215. However, if some people still think that it is a measurement artifact the situation needs to be dealt with. Otherwise, we will continue having to deal with such measurement myths and get nowhere. Best wishes, Philip On 4 November 2014 19:18, Brian McCarty <<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">bmccarty at coralseastudios.com</A>> wrote: > I agree with Mr. Soper that the objective of the Modern Calibration > document is to provide improved calibration methods. > > However I continue to believe that this is putting lipstick on a pig. > > As the B-Chain Report has so aptly demonstrated, along with the work of > Philip Newell et. al. in 2010, the dubbing rooms are not following the > X-curve or any other Standard to reference their rooms. In fact we’re all > aware that there are dubbing rooms in Hollywood that are run off two sets > of equalizers - the “X-curve alignment” equalizers and the “daily mixing” > equalizers. > > As the audio coming out of the dubbing rooms no longer meets the Standard, > it’s ludicrous to think that updating the calibration methodology in S202 > will accomplish anything positive. It in fact will serve to re-cement a > theater system that’s broken. > > It is again my recommendation that this document not move forward, as the > fundamentals it is built on are gone. S202 is no longer operative, it’s > broken. Proper aiming of the calibration microphones and looking at the > room on an FTA instead of an RTA won’t do one whit of good if the product > they’re getting is coming out of studios who are making ad hoc calibrations > of their dubbing rooms. > > The system of half-baked bandaids on problems as we find them doesn’t > work. What needs to happen is a logical analysis and implementation of > solutions, starting with SC-04-08 - calibration of sound systems in rooms. > This is the first work that should be completed, which then the SMPTE would > reference for the specifics necessary to meet a performance Standard for > cinema. > > Brian McCarty > > > > > On Nov 5, 2014, at 4:03 AM, Pete Soper <<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">psoper at meyersound.com</A>> wrote: > > > > Regardless of any individuals perceived/believed/rumored rationale > behind the X-curve, the fact remains that it is still the prescribed > response plot for audio frequency response in ST-202M and RP-200 which are > still the current SMPTE standard documents and practices for cinema B-chain > alignment and calibration. > > > > The objective of the modern calibration AHG is not to re-write these > standards, but rather to provide guidelines for using more commonly > available modern measurement tools and techniques such as dual channel FFT > transfer function analysis in performing the setup and verification of > systems in accordance with SMPTE 202M and RP-200. As such, any arguments > for or against the X-curve are completely outside the scope of that group- > and correspondingly, AES X215. > > > > > > However, with that said- I think it is important to point out that > several recent studies have illustrated that the matter of needing sound to > project through a perforated screen results in a nominally "flat" speaker > behind the screen results in very close to an "X-curve" response in front > of the screen, this net effect on system response is repeatable and > verifiable with either 1/3 octave RTA or dual channel transfer function > analysis and despite claims by many to the contrary- is NOT just a > measurement artifact, it is simply what happens when sound is transmitted > through a perforated barrier. > > > > The recently published B-chain theater test group report shows that only > one of the dubbing stages having a woven fabric screen (as opposed to > perforated solid material) required a low-order HF roll off be imposed to > meet the X-curve target, all of the perforated screen systems in the study > had either no significant HF equalization or actually required boosting of > some high frequencies in order to comply with the X-curve target window. > > > > -Pete Soper > > Meyer Sound Laboratories Inc. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: <A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">sc-04-08-bounces at standards.aes.org</A> [mailto: > <A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">sc-04-08-bounces at standards.aes.org</A>] On Behalf Of markyonge > > Sent: Tuesday, November 04, 2014 6:32 AM > > To: Working group on Measurement and equalization of sound systems in > rooms > > Cc: markyonge > > Subject: Re: [SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration" > > > > Dear SC-04-08, > > > > This discussion of the SMPTE ST 202 X-curve, developed in the late > 1970s, would only be of arcane historical interest, except for the > suggestion that it might be perpetuated in the Modern Calibration draft > using a different measurement technique. > > > > In the late 1970s I aligned many cinemas for Dolby Laboratories, who > were active in developing the X-curve as a pragmatic tool to calibrate the > B-chains of mix rooms and cinemas. The intent was to take full advantage of > the essentially-flat A-chain frequency response in Dolby Stereo films. The > measurement equipment that was available seemed like rocket science at the > time, but now looks very dated. The measurement technique produced > reasonably consistent results, but relied heavily on some working > assumptions, many of which are also now outdated. > > > > The following assertions are fully supported by SMPTE ST 202:2010 (and > its close cousin, ISO 2969). I am happy to go into this in more detail, > developing the presentation I gave to SC-04-08 in Rome, May 2013. Meanwhile: > > > > • The purpose of the X-curve is to predict a flat frequency response > for direct (first-arrival) sound; > > • The X-curve is a measurement artifact and not an audio roll-off; > > • The X-curve represents a display on a real-time audio analyser > (RTA), comprising a flat spectral component of the direct sound overlaid at > lower frequencies by a higher-amplitude reverberation contribution from the > cinema auditorium. (The direct sound comprises instantaneous energy at the > microphone, while the reverberant energy has been integrating for perhaps > as long as a second in a "typical&quo...

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<TITLE> [SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration" </TITLE> pre { white-space: pre-wrap; /* css-2.1, curent FF, Opera, Safari */ } <H1>[SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration"</H1> Brian McCarty <A HREF="mailto:sc-04-08%40standards.aes.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BSC-04-08%5D%20Comments%20on%20%22SMPTE-Modern-Calibration%22&In-Reply-To=%3C122E4E0C-2E05-47AD-A046-82B8A29D7C77%40coralseastudios.com%3E" TITLE="[SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration"">bmccarty at coralseastudios.com </A> Tue Nov 4 12:01:52 MST 2014 <UL> <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="000243.html">[SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration" </A></li> <LI>Next message: <A HREF="000245.html">[SC-04-08] Document attach/upload </A></li> <LI> Messages sorted by: <a href="date.html#244">[ date ]</a> <a href="thread.html#244">[ thread ]</a> <a href="subject.html#244">[ subject ]</a> <a href="author.html#244">[ author ]</a> </LI> </UL> <HR>  <PRE>I believe that document can be attached. If not let me know and I'll add the TC reference. Brian > On 5 Nov 2014, at 4:59 am, philip newell <<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">philiprnewell at gmail.com</A>> wrote: > > Dear Brian, > > You refer to the Cardiff IOA conference paper (as did > the SMPTE report). Will this reflector accept attachments? If so I will > send the paper for all to see (only 521 KB). > > I agree with Pete Soper that the X-curve is not really > a subject for X215. However, if some people still think that it is a > measurement artifact the situation needs to be dealt with. Otherwise, we > will continue having to deal with such measurement myths and get nowhere. > > > Best wishes, > > > > Philip > > > > On 4 November 2014 19:18, Brian McCarty <<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">bmccarty at coralseastudios.com</A>> > wrote: > >> I agree with Mr. Soper that the objective of the Modern Calibration >> document is to provide improved calibration methods. >> >> However I continue to believe that this is putting lipstick on a pig. >> >> As the B-Chain Report has so aptly demonstrated, along with the work of >> Philip Newell et. al. in 2010, the dubbing rooms are not following the >> X-curve or any other Standard to reference their rooms. In fact we’re all >> aware that there are dubbing rooms in Hollywood that are run off two sets >> of equalizers - the “X-curve alignment” equalizers and the “daily mixing” >> equalizers. >> >> As the audio coming out of the dubbing rooms no longer meets the Standard, >> it’s ludicrous to think that updating the calibration methodology in S202 >> will accomplish anything positive. It in fact will serve to re-cement a >> theater system that’s broken. >> >> It is again my recommendation that this document not move forward, as the >> fundamentals it is built on are gone. S202 is no longer operative, it’s >> broken. Proper aiming of the calibration microphones and looking at the >> room on an FTA instead of an RTA won’t do one whit of good if the product >> they’re getting is coming out of studios who are making ad hoc calibrations >> of their dubbing rooms. >> >> The system of half-baked bandaids on problems as we find them doesn’t >> work. What needs to happen is a logical analysis and implementation of >> solutions, starting with SC-04-08 - calibration of sound systems in rooms. >> This is the first work that should be completed, which then the SMPTE would >> reference for the specifics necessary to meet a performance Standard for >> cinema. >> >> Brian McCarty >> >> >> >>> On Nov 5, 2014, at 4:03 AM, Pete Soper <<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">psoper at meyersound.com</A>> wrote: >>> >>> Regardless of any individuals perceived/believed/rumored rationale >> behind the X-curve, the fact remains that it is still the prescribed >> response plot for audio frequency response in ST-202M and RP-200 which are >> still the current SMPTE standard documents and practices for cinema B-chain >> alignment and calibration. >>> >>> The objective of the modern calibration AHG is not to re-write these >> standards, but rather to provide guidelines for using more commonly >> available modern measurement tools and techniques such as dual channel FFT >> transfer function analysis in performing the setup and verification of >> systems in accordance with SMPTE 202M and RP-200. As such, any arguments >> for or against the X-curve are completely outside the scope of that group- >> and correspondingly, AES X215. >>> >>> >>> However, with that said- I think it is important to point out that >> several recent studies have illustrated that the matter of needing sound to >> project through a perforated screen results in a nominally "flat" speaker >> behind the screen results in very close to an "X-curve" response in front >> of the screen, this net effect on system response is repeatable and >> verifiable with either 1/3 octave RTA or dual channel transfer function >> analysis and despite claims by many to the contrary- is NOT just a >> measurement artifact, it is simply what happens when sound is transmitted >> through a perforated barrier. >>> >>> The recently published B-chain theater test group report shows that only >> one of the dubbing stages having a woven fabric screen (as opposed to >> perforated solid material) required a low-order HF roll off be imposed to >> meet the X-curve target, all of the perforated screen systems in the study >> had either no significant HF equalization or actually required boosting of >> some high frequencies in order to comply with the X-curve target window. >>> >>> -Pete Soper >>> Meyer Sound Laboratories Inc. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: <A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">sc-04-08-bounces at standards.aes.org</A> [mailto: >> <A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">sc-04-08-bounces at standards.aes.org</A>] On Behalf Of markyonge >>> Sent: Tuesday, November 04, 2014 6:32 AM >>> To: Working group on Measurement and equalization of sound systems in >> rooms >>> Cc: markyonge >>> Subject: Re: [SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration" >>> >>> Dear SC-04-08, >>> >>> This discussion of the SMPTE ST 202 X-curve, developed in the late >> 1970s, would only be of arcane historical interest, except for the >> suggestion that it might be perpetuated in the Modern Calibration draft >> using a different measurement technique. >>> >>> In the late 1970s I aligned many cinemas for Dolby Laboratories, who >> were active in developing the X-curve as a pragmatic tool to calibrate the >> B-chains of mix rooms and cinemas. The intent was to take full advantage of >> the essentially-flat A-chain frequency response in Dolby Stereo films. The >> measurement equipment that was available seemed like rocket science at the >> time, but now looks very dated. The measurement technique produced >> reasonably consistent results, but relied heavily on some working >> assumptions, many of which are also now outdated. >>> >>> The following assertions are fully supported by SMPTE ST 202:2010 (and >> its close cou...

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<TITLE> [SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration" </TITLE> pre { white-space: pre-wrap; /* css-2.1, curent FF, Opera, Safari */ } <H1>[SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration"</H1> philip newell <A HREF="mailto:sc-04-08%40standards.aes.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BSC-04-08%5D%20Comments%20on%20%22SMPTE-Modern-Calibration%22&In-Reply-To=%3CCAEEhACmrn7W_bsWZE0_bKq_rw5U0Oj%3DFAya%3DcASp7bU6KZPqnA%40mail.gmail.com%3E" TITLE="[SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration"">philiprnewell at gmail.com </A> Tue Nov 4 12:15:56 MST 2014 <UL> <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="000245.html">[SC-04-08] Document attach/upload </A></li> <LI>Next message: <A HREF="000252.html">[SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration" </A></li> <LI> Messages sorted by: <a href="date.html#246">[ date ]</a> <a href="thread.html#246">[ thread ]</a> <a href="subject.html#246">[ subject ]</a> <a href="author.html#246">[ author ]</a> </LI> </UL> <HR>  <PRE>Attached here is the Cardiff paper (if the attachment works). Most relevant is Figure 8, on the last page of the paper. Philip On 4 November 2014 20:01, Brian McCarty <<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">bmccarty at coralseastudios.com</A>> wrote: > I believe that document can be attached. If not let me know and I'll add > the TC reference. > > Brian > > > > On 5 Nov 2014, at 4:59 am, philip newell <<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">philiprnewell at gmail.com</A>> > wrote: > > > > Dear Brian, > > > > You refer to the Cardiff IOA conference paper (as did > > the SMPTE report). Will this reflector accept attachments? If so I will > > send the paper for all to see (only 521 KB). > > > > I agree with Pete Soper that the X-curve is not really > > a subject for X215. However, if some people still think that it is a > > measurement artifact the situation needs to be dealt with. Otherwise, we > > will continue having to deal with such measurement myths and get nowhere. > > > > > > Best wishes, > > > > > > > > Philip > > > > > > > > On 4 November 2014 19:18, Brian McCarty <<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">bmccarty at coralseastudios.com</A>> > > wrote: > > > >> I agree with Mr. Soper that the objective of the Modern Calibration > >> document is to provide improved calibration methods. > >> > >> However I continue to believe that this is putting lipstick on a pig. > >> > >> As the B-Chain Report has so aptly demonstrated, along with the work of > >> Philip Newell et. al. in 2010, the dubbing rooms are not following the > >> X-curve or any other Standard to reference their rooms. In fact we’re > all > >> aware that there are dubbing rooms in Hollywood that are run off two > sets > >> of equalizers - the “X-curve alignment” equalizers and the “daily > mixing” > >> equalizers. > >> > >> As the audio coming out of the dubbing rooms no longer meets the > Standard, > >> it’s ludicrous to think that updating the calibration methodology in > S202 > >> will accomplish anything positive. It in fact will serve to re-cement a > >> theater system that’s broken. > >> > >> It is again my recommendation that this document not move forward, as > the > >> fundamentals it is built on are gone. S202 is no longer operative, it’s > >> broken. Proper aiming of the calibration microphones and looking at the > >> room on an FTA instead of an RTA won’t do one whit of good if the > product > >> they’re getting is coming out of studios who are making ad hoc > calibrations > >> of their dubbing rooms. > >> > >> The system of half-baked bandaids on problems as we find them doesn’t > >> work. What needs to happen is a logical analysis and implementation of > >> solutions, starting with SC-04-08 - calibration of sound systems in > rooms. > >> This is the first work that should be completed, which then the SMPTE > would > >> reference for the specifics necessary to meet a performance Standard for > >> cinema. > >> > >> Brian McCarty > >> > >> > >> > >>> On Nov 5, 2014, at 4:03 AM, Pete Soper <<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">psoper at meyersound.com</A>> wrote: > >>> > >>> Regardless of any individuals perceived/believed/rumored rationale > >> behind the X-curve, the fact remains that it is still the prescribed > >> response plot for audio frequency response in ST-202M and RP-200 which > are > >> still the current SMPTE standard documents and practices for cinema > B-chain > >> alignment and calibration. > >>> > >>> The objective of the modern calibration AHG is not to re-write these > >> standards, but rather to provide guidelines for using more commonly > >> available modern measurement tools and techniques such as dual channel > FFT > >> transfer function analysis in performing the setup and verification of > >> systems in accordance with SMPTE 202M and RP-200. As such, any arguments > >> for or against the X-curve are completely outside the scope of that > group- > >> and correspondingly, AES X215. > >>> > >>> > >>> However, with that said- I think it is important to point out that > >> several recent studies have illustrated that the matter of needing > sound to > >> project through a perforated screen results in a nominally "flat" > speaker > >> behind the screen results in very close to an "X-curve" response in > front > >> of the screen, this net effect on system response is repeatable and > >> verifiable with either 1/3 octave RTA or dual channel transfer function > >> analysis and despite claims by many to the contrary- is NOT just a > >> measurement artifact, it is simply what happens when sound is > transmitted > >> through a perforated barrier. > >>> > >>> The recently published B-chain theater test group report shows that > only > >> one of the dubbing stages having a woven fabric screen (as opposed to > >> perforated solid material) required a low-order HF roll off be imposed > to > >> meet the X-curve target, all of the perforated screen systems in the > study > >> had either no significant HF equalization or actually required boosting > of > >> some high frequencies in order to comply with the X-curve target window. > >>> > >>> -Pete Soper > >>> Meyer Sound Laboratories Inc. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> -----Original Message----- > >>> From: <A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">sc-04-08-bounces at standards.aes.org</A> [mailto: > >> <A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">sc-04-08-bounces at standards.aes.org</A>] On Behalf Of markyonge > >>> Sent: Tuesday, November 04, 2014 6:32 AM > >>> To: Working group on Measurement and equalization of sound systems in > >> rooms > >>> Cc: markyonge > >>> Subject: Re: [SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration" > >&g...

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<TITLE> [SC-04-08] Document attach/upload </TITLE> pre { white-space: pre-wrap; /* css-2.1, curent FF, Opera, Safari */ } <H1>[SC-04-08] Document attach/upload</H1> David Josephson <A HREF="mailto:sc-04-08%40standards.aes.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BSC-04-08%5D%20Document%20attach/upload&In-Reply-To=%3C545923B8.3050206%40josephson.com%3E" TITLE="[SC-04-08] Document attach/upload">dlj at josephson.com </A> Tue Nov 4 12:06:32 MST 2014 <UL> <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="000244.html">[SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration" </A></li> <LI>Next message: <A HREF="000246.html">[SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration" </A></li> <LI> Messages sorted by: <a href="date.html#245">[ date ]</a> <a href="thread.html#245">[ thread ]</a> <a href="subject.html#245">[ subject ]</a> <a href="author.html#245">[ author ]</a> </LI> </UL> <HR>  <PRE>Documents attached to posts will not be sent on by the reflector. The preferred method for sharing files is to upload them to the SC-04-08 document site. Please refer to <A HREF="http://www.aes.org/standards/development/aessc-comms-080913.pdf">http://www.aes.org/standards/development/aessc-comms-080913.pdf</A> for naming conventions, etc. and use a filename that will make it easy for people to find in the future. David Josephson Chair, SC-04 </PRE>  <HR> <UL>  <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="000244.html">[SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration" </A></li> <LI>Next message: <A HREF="000246.html">[SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration" </A></li> <LI> Messages sorted by: <a href="date.html#245">[ date ]</a> <a href="thread.html#245">[ thread ]</a> <a href="subject.html#245">[ subject ]</a> <a href="author.html#245">[ author ]</a> </LI> </UL> <hr> <a href="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">More information about the SC-04-08 mailing list</a> 

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<TITLE> [SC-04-08] X215 Point of order </TITLE> pre { white-space: pre-wrap; /* css-2.1, curent FF, Opera, Safari */ } <H1>[SC-04-08] X215 Point of order</H1> David Josephson <A HREF="mailto:sc-04-08%40standards.aes.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BSC-04-08%5D%20X215%20Point%20of%20order&In-Reply-To=%3C5459278E.6060307%40josephson.com%3E" TITLE="[SC-04-08] X215 Point of order">dlj at josephson.com </A> Tue Nov 4 12:22:54 MST 2014 <UL> <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="000258.html">[SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration" </A></li> <LI>Next message: <A HREF="000251.html">[SC-04-08] X215 Point of order </A></li> <LI> Messages sorted by: <a href="date.html#247">[ date ]</a> <a href="thread.html#247">[ thread ]</a> <a href="subject.html#247">[ subject ]</a> <a href="author.html#247">[ author ]</a> </LI> </UL> <HR>  <PRE>I'd like to confirm that we are all shooting at the same target. The choice of a given response curve is immaterial to the present discussion, and I propose we leave discussion of the X-curve out of it for now. If we are looking for a method to assure uniformity among public theater playback systems, it also doesn't matter *to the measurement.* The curve that results from the measurement is what it is, what you do with the measurement is up to you. We still have not stated which is desired, it can be one or the other of these, and not both. Do we want (a) Frequency response for the direct path from the {average, individual, worst-case} loudspeaker to the average listener, assuming that the contribution from room response is negligible or (b) Frequency response including room reverberation from the loudspeaker system to the average listener, for the purpose of predicting sound pressure level at the listener's ear If we want (a) then transfer-function methods are appropriate. If we want (b) then noise-and-RTA methods are appropriate. I think we will eventually want something entirely else, but I don't see any evidence of consensus on what that is. I share the frustration expressed by some that the present methods are outdated and inapplicable. But we are asked to help stabilize the old method and I think it's worthwhile to do so, even as we work to find a better one. David Josephson Chair, SC-04 Subcommittee on Acoustics </PRE>  <HR> <UL>  <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="000258.html">[SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration" </A></li> <LI>Next message: <A HREF="000251.html">[SC-04-08] X215 Point of order </A></li> <LI> Messages sorted by: <a href="date.html#247">[ date ]</a> <a href="thread.html#247">[ thread ]</a> <a href="subject.html#247">[ subject ]</a> <a href="author.html#247">[ author ]</a> </LI> </UL> <hr> <a href="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">More information about the SC-04-08 mailing list</a> 

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<TITLE> [SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration" </TITLE> pre { white-space: pre-wrap; /* css-2.1, curent FF, Opera, Safari */ } <H1>[SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration"</H1> John Woodgate <A HREF="mailto:sc-04-08%40standards.aes.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BSC-04-08%5D%20Comments%20on%20%22SMPTE-Modern-Calibration%22&In-Reply-To=%3Cs5WajRR%24vSWUFwcx%40jmwa.demon.co.uk%3E" TITLE="[SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration"">jmw at jmwa.demon.co.uk </A> Tue Nov 4 12:41:51 MST 2014 <UL> <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="000255.html">[SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration" </A></li> <LI>Next message: <A HREF="000256.html">[SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration" </A></li> <LI> Messages sorted by: <a href="date.html#248">[ date ]</a> <a href="thread.html#248">[ thread ]</a> <a href="subject.html#248">[ subject ]</a> <a href="author.html#248">[ author ]</a> </LI> </UL> <HR>  <PRE>In message <<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">2BE563BCBE473946A8E72AE261D4F64B0177FD82D8 at XCHG1.ms.msli.com</A>>, dated Tue, 4 Nov 2014, Pete Soper <<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">psoper at meyersound.com</A>> writes: >Regardless of any individuals perceived/believed/rumored rationale >behind the X-curve, the fact remains that it is still the prescribed >response plot for audio frequency response in ST-202M and RP-200 which >are still the current SMPTE standard documents and practices for cinema >B-chain alignment and calibration. Yes, but when you let slip the dogs of war... > >The objective of the modern calibration AHG is not to re-write these >standards, but rather to provide guidelines for using more commonly >available modern measurement tools and techniques such as dual channel >FFT transfer function analysis in performing the setup and verification >of systems in accordance with SMPTE 202M and RP-200. As such, any >arguments for or against the X-curve are completely outside the scope >of that group- and correspondingly, AES X215. ... you can't really expect AES members to feel bound by the terms of reference of the SMPTE ad hoc group. Well, you can expect it, but it won't happen. Equally, AES can't necessarily expect SMPTE to withdraw some standards now, leaving a hiatus while newer and better are developed. I suspect all the argy-bargy here is simply due to that; AES wants to move the whole room measurements scenario into the 21st century, but SMPTE has some standards that need maintaining and that's their immediate priority. So, I suggest a compromise, which by definition isn't perfect. - AES members work on X-215, strictly under SMPTE terms of reference, i.e. nothing out of scope, however imperfect the result is in actual fact; - SC-04-08 starts a new project (no, I won't sponsor it, I don't know enough about the subject to lead the project; what I know about is how to get the standards we want, with least grief) on assessing or evaluating rooms according to best current knowledge. This work may be shared with SMPTE at some stage, with the object of helping SMPTE update or replace those standards that are no longer optimum. -- OOO - Own Opinions Only. With best wishes. See www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Quid faciamus nisi sit? John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK </PRE>  <HR> <UL>  <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="000255.html">[SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration" </A></li> <LI>Next message: <A HREF="000256.html">[SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration" </A></li> <LI> Messages sorted by: <a href="date.html#248">[ date ]</a> <a href="thread.html#248">[ thread ]</a> <a href="subject.html#248">[ subject ]</a> <a href="author.html#248">[ author ]</a> </LI> </UL> <hr> <a href="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">More information about the SC-04-08 mailing list</a> 

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<TITLE> [SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration" </TITLE> pre { white-space: pre-wrap; /* css-2.1, curent FF, Opera, Safari */ } <H1>[SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration"</H1> John Woodgate <A HREF="mailto:sc-04-08%40standards.aes.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BSC-04-08%5D%20Comments%20on%20%22SMPTE-Modern-Calibration%22&In-Reply-To=%3CGJ0QPBS0xSWUFwbz%40jmwa.demon.co.uk%3E" TITLE="[SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration"">jmw at jmwa.demon.co.uk </A> Tue Nov 4 12:43:48 MST 2014 <UL> <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="000242.html">[SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration" </A></li> <LI>Next message: <A HREF="000259.html">[SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration" </A></li> <LI> Messages sorted by: <a href="date.html#249">[ date ]</a> <a href="thread.html#249">[ thread ]</a> <a href="subject.html#249">[ subject ]</a> <a href="author.html#249">[ author ]</a> </LI> </UL> <HR>  <PRE>In message <<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">8DBDC6D514F3F44B99EA56F331381FE1C32E84F0 at mailbox10.lucas.alllucas.com</A>>, dated Tue, 4 Nov 2014, Brian Long <<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">blong at skysound.com</A>> writes: >I disagree with a number of statements made in the post included below >and would encourage the members of this group to review the report and >data in it, along with the Newell et al. research (and supporting >sources), rather than relying the summary statements presented. With respect, I don't think that is helpful. WHAT don't you agree with? If we don't know that, we are really chasing a wild goose through all the posts, wondering which statements you accept and which you do not. -- OOO - Own Opinions Only. With best wishes. See www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Quid faciamus nisi sit? John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK </PRE>  <HR> <UL>  <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="000242.html">[SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration" </A></li> <LI>Next message: <A HREF="000259.html">[SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration" </A></li> <LI> Messages sorted by: <a href="date.html#249">[ date ]</a> <a href="thread.html#249">[ thread ]</a> <a href="subject.html#249">[ subject ]</a> <a href="author.html#249">[ author ]</a> </LI> </UL> <hr> <a href="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">More information about the SC-04-08 mailing list</a> 

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<TITLE> [SC-04-08] X215 Point of order </TITLE> pre { white-space: pre-wrap; /* css-2.1, curent FF, Opera, Safari */ } <H1>[SC-04-08] X215 Point of order</H1> philip newell <A HREF="mailto:sc-04-08%40standards.aes.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BSC-04-08%5D%20X215%20Point%20of%20order&In-Reply-To=%3CCAEEhACkmcrTga4cmh%3D3Ryn%2BMSSbdLfEZtaMjTBR66Jkq9xu-iw%40mail.gmail.com%3E" TITLE="[SC-04-08] X215 Point of order">philiprnewell at gmail.com </A> Tue Nov 4 12:50:49 MST 2014 <UL> <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="000251.html">[SC-04-08] X215 Point of order </A></li> <LI>Next message: <A HREF="000254.html">[SC-04-08] Guides to standards development </A></li> <LI> Messages sorted by: <a href="date.html#250">[ date ]</a> <a href="thread.html#250">[ thread ]</a> <a href="subject.html#250">[ subject ]</a> <a href="author.html#250">[ author ]</a> </LI> </UL> <HR>  <PRE>Dear David, I think that what provoked this rather intense discussion was *not* about the validity of the X-curve, *per se*, but about the suggestion that a flat response of the direct sound (leaving the screen) results in an X-curve when measured deep into the theatre (and only via RTA measurements). That concept has been shown by the recent SMPTE report to be incorrect. It is hard to move forwards until such myths are laid to rest. Best wishes, Philip On 4 November 2014 20:22, David Josephson <<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">dlj at josephson.com</A>> wrote: > I'd like to confirm that we are all shooting at the same target. The > choice of a given response curve is immaterial to the present discussion, > and I propose we leave discussion of the X-curve out of it for now. If we > are looking for a method to assure uniformity among public theater playback > systems, it also doesn't matter *to the measurement.* The curve that > results from the measurement is what it is, what you do with the > measurement is up to you. We still have not stated which is desired, it can > be one or the other of these, and not both. Do we want > > (a) Frequency response for the direct path from the {average, individual, > worst-case} loudspeaker to the average listener, assuming that the > contribution from room response is negligible or > > (b) Frequency response including room reverberation from the loudspeaker > system to the average listener, for the purpose of predicting sound > pressure level at the listener's ear > > If we want (a) then transfer-function methods are appropriate. If we want > (b) then noise-and-RTA methods are appropriate. I think we will eventually > want something entirely else, but I don't see any evidence of consensus on > what that is. > > I share the frustration expressed by some that the present methods are > outdated and inapplicable. But we are asked to help stabilize the old > method and I think it's worthwhile to do so, even as we work to find a > better one. > > David Josephson > Chair, SC-04 Subcommittee on Acoustics > _______________________________________________ > SC-04-08 mailing list > <A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">SC-04-08 at standards.aes.org</A> > <<A HREF="http://standards.aes.org/sc.cfm?ID=91">http://standards.aes.org/sc.cfm?ID=91</A>> > </PRE>  <HR> <UL>  <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="000251.html">[SC-04-08] X215 Point of order </A></li> <LI>Next message: <A HREF="000254.html">[SC-04-08] Guides to standards development </A></li> <LI> Messages sorted by: <a href="date.html#250">[ date ]</a> <a href="thread.html#250">[ thread ]</a> <a href="subject.html#250">[ subject ]</a> <a href="author.html#250">[ author ]</a> </LI> </UL> <hr> <a href="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">More information about the SC-04-08 mailing list</a> 

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<TITLE> [SC-04-08] X215 comments re microphones </TITLE> pre { white-space: pre-wrap; /* css-2.1, curent FF, Opera, Safari */ } <H1>[SC-04-08] X215 comments re microphones</H1> neil a shaw <A HREF="mailto:sc-04-08%40standards.aes.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BSC-04-08%5D%20X215%20comments%20re%20microphones&In-Reply-To=%3C5453A473.7050505%40ieee.org%3E" TITLE="[SC-04-08] X215 comments re microphones">menlo at ieee.org </A> Fri Oct 31 09:02:11 MDT 2014 <UL> <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="000230.html">[SC-04-08] X215 comments re microphones </A></li> <LI>Next message: <A HREF="000232.html">[SC-04-08] X215 comments re microphones </A></li> <LI> Messages sorted by: <a href="date.html#231">[ date ]</a> <a href="thread.html#231">[ thread ]</a> <a href="subject.html#231">[ subject ]</a> <a href="author.html#231">[ author ]</a> </LI> </UL> <HR>  <PRE>All- This question was discussed within the B-chain SG. Where to aim for the screen channels - left, center, or right? Where to aim for the surround channels? That is why straight up was chosen - the microphones are in the same orientation for all loudspeakers located for 7.1 and 5.1 systems (but maybe not for the ceiling loudspeakers in immersive systems - that is a bridge too far right now). Maybe not the most rigorous solution, but definitely a practical one. I welcome any comments as this is what Tom Holman called a nuisance variable, and needs to be addressed to insure conformance and repeatability. Thanks. Neil Neil A. Shaw, FASA, FAES Menlo Scientific Acoustics, Inc. Topanga, California +310-455-2221 On 10/31/14 2:21, John Woodgate wrote: > In message <000d01cff4e8$f99b5390$ecd1fab0$@acousticdirections.com>, > dated Fri, 31 Oct 2014, Glenn Leembruggen > <<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">glenn at acousticdirections.com</A>> writes: > >> I believe it to be easier and less prone to error to use a free-field >> microphone that is simply pointed at the loudspeakers. > > At some microphone positions, loudspeakers may be spread over > directions approaching +/-75 degrees, if not more. Where do you point > the microphone? </PRE>  <HR> <UL>  <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="000230.html">[SC-04-08] X215 comments re microphones </A></li> <LI>Next message: <A HREF="000232.html">[SC-04-08] X215 comments re microphones </A></li> <LI> Messages sorted by: <a href="date.html#231">[ date ]</a> <a href="thread.html#231">[ thread ]</a> <a href="subject.html#231">[ subject ]</a> <a href="author.html#231">[ author ]</a> </LI> </UL> <hr> <a href="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">More information about the SC-04-08 mailing list</a> 

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<TITLE> [SC-04-08] X215 comments re microphones </TITLE> pre { white-space: pre-wrap; /* css-2.1, curent FF, Opera, Safari */ } <H1>[SC-04-08] X215 comments re microphones</H1> John Woodgate <A HREF="mailto:sc-04-08%40standards.aes.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BSC-04-08%5D%20X215%20comments%20re%20microphones&In-Reply-To=%3CfOomO%2BuOn6UUFwIk%40jmwa.demon.co.uk%3E" TITLE="[SC-04-08] X215 comments re microphones">jmw at jmwa.demon.co.uk </A> Fri Oct 31 09:25:02 MDT 2014 <UL> <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="000231.html">[SC-04-08] X215 comments re microphones </A></li> <LI>Next message: <A HREF="000233.html">[SC-04-08] X215 comments re microphones </A></li> <LI> Messages sorted by: <a href="date.html#232">[ date ]</a> <a href="thread.html#232">[ thread ]</a> <a href="subject.html#232">[ subject ]</a> <a href="author.html#232">[ author ]</a> </LI> </UL> <HR>  <PRE>In message <<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">5453A473.7050505 at ieee.org</A>>, dated Fri, 31 Oct 2014, neil a shaw <<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">menlo at ieee.org</A>> writes: > That is why straight up was chosen - the microphones are in the same >orientation for all loudspeakers located for 7.1 and 5.1 systems (but >maybe not for the ceiling loudspeakers in immersive systems - that is a >bridge too far right now). Agreed. I suspect that immersive systems require a whole new protocol. > Maybe not the most rigorous solution, but definitely a practical one. From David Josephson's report, 'pointed at the ceiling' is preferred, and works for everything (except immersive), rather than being 'not the most rigorous'. -- OOO - Own Opinions Only. With best wishes. See www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Quid faciamus nisi sit? John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK </PRE>  <HR> <UL>  <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="000231.html">[SC-04-08] X215 comments re microphones </A></li> <LI>Next message: <A HREF="000233.html">[SC-04-08] X215 comments re microphones </A></li> <LI> Messages sorted by: <a href="date.html#232">[ date ]</a> <a href="thread.html#232">[ thread ]</a> <a href="subject.html#232">[ subject ]</a> <a href="author.html#232">[ author ]</a> </LI> </UL> <hr> <a href="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">More information about the SC-04-08 mailing list</a> 

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<TITLE> [SC-04-08] X215 comments re microphones </TITLE> pre { white-space: pre-wrap; /* css-2.1, curent FF, Opera, Safari */ } <H1>[SC-04-08] X215 comments re microphones</H1> David Josephson <A HREF="mailto:sc-04-08%40standards.aes.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BSC-04-08%5D%20X215%20comments%20re%20microphones&In-Reply-To=%3C5453C6D1.7030603%40josephson.com%3E" TITLE="[SC-04-08] X215 comments re microphones">dlj at josephson.com </A> Fri Oct 31 11:28:49 MDT 2014 <UL> <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="000232.html">[SC-04-08] X215 comments re microphones </A></li> <LI>Next message: <A HREF="000235.html">[SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration" </A></li> <LI> Messages sorted by: <a href="date.html#233">[ date ]</a> <a href="thread.html#233">[ thread ]</a> <a href="subject.html#233">[ subject ]</a> <a href="author.html#233">[ author ]</a> </LI> </UL> <HR>  <PRE>On 10/31/14 8:02 AM, neil a shaw wrote: > This question was discussed within the B-chain SG. Where to aim for the > screen channels - left, center, or right? Where to aim for the surround > channels? That is why straight up was chosen - the microphones are in > the same orientation for all loudspeakers located for 7.1 and 5.1 > systems (but maybe not for the ceiling loudspeakers in immersive systems > - that is a bridge too far right now). Maybe not the most rigorous > solution, but definitely a practical one. > > I welcome any comments as this is what Tom Holman called a nuisance > variable, and needs to be addressed to insure conformance and > repeatability. Can anyone say why the "straight up" method would be any less rigorous than any other method described here? Few users in this community are willing to spend the time and/or money to calibrate their microphones by free-field reciprocity. Without that, you're at the mercy of whatever correction curve the manufacturer supplies, whether it's pressure coupler to normal incidence response, or electrostatic actuator to normal incidence. The general trend of the curve is well established by the physics of scattering, but details in the top octave, and at different angles, are determined by specifics of the protection grid and housing of the microphone. Nearly all microphones incorporate internal damping and equalization whenever the wavelength of sound is shorter than the significant dimensions of the microphone. It doesn't matter for our purposes whether this equalization is mechanical, as in the case of differentiating legacy pressure-response, random-incidence, diffuse- or free-field microphones, or electrical. It is no less rigorous to apply external equalization to achieve the calibrated response, than to accept the manufacturer's assertion that their mechanical equalization is accurate. The last part of my comment included specific recommendations for a series of specifications that could be used to establish the utility of a given microphone for this application. The degree of rigor is set by the user's requirements for precision and traceability of each measurement, and we should all know how to add up the error bars to determine how close we are to "exact." David Josephson </PRE>  <HR> <UL>  <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="000232.html">[SC-04-08] X215 comments re microphones </A></li> <LI>Next message: <A HREF="000235.html">[SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration" </A></li> <LI> Messages sorted by: <a href="date.html#233">[ date ]</a> <a href="thread.html#233">[ thread ]</a> <a href="subject.html#233">[ subject ]</a> <a href="author.html#233">[ author ]</a> </LI> </UL> <hr> <a href="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">More information about the SC-04-08 mailing list</a> 

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<TITLE> [SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration"; mark yonge </TITLE> pre { white-space: pre-wrap; /* css-2.1, curent FF, Opera, Safari */ } <H1>[SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration"; mark yonge</H1> Glenn Leembruggen <A HREF="mailto:sc-04-08%40standards.aes.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BSC-04-08%5D%20Comments%20on%20%22SMPTE-Modern-Calibration%22%3B%20mark%20yonge&In-Reply-To=%3C02fa01cff572%241d688660%2458399320%24%40acousticdirections.com%3E" TITLE="[SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration"; mark yonge">glenn at acousticdirections.com </A> Fri Oct 31 19:21:06 MDT 2014 <UL> <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="000227.html">[SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration"; mark yonge </A></li> <LI>Next message: <A HREF="000226.html">[SC-04-08] Comments on X215 </A></li> <LI> Messages sorted by: <a href="date.html#234">[ date ]</a> <a href="thread.html#234">[ thread ]</a> <a href="subject.html#234">[ subject ]</a> <a href="author.html#234">[ author ]</a> </LI> </UL> <HR>  <PRE>Mark Where do I send or post my marked up Word document for Modern Cal. I sent by email last night but it bounced due to attachment size. thanks Glenn Glenn Leembruggen Acoustic Directions Pty Ltd Consultants in Acoustics & Sound Systems tel: +612 9568 4684 fax: +612 9572 8939 mob: +61 418 207 085 -----Original Message----- From: <A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">sc-04-08-bounces at standards.aes.org</A> [mailto:<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">sc-04-08-bounces at standards.aes.org</A>] On Behalf Of Glenn Leembruggen Sent: Friday, 31 October 2014 7:37 PM To: 'Working group on Measurement and equalization of sound systems in rooms' Subject: Re: [SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration"; mark yonge Hello Mark Re your comment regarding the USE OF ST 202 WITH FFT-BASED ANALYSER and following sections, I'm not sure if I have misunderstood you. The work that was presented in the B Chain report showed beyond doubt that the mechanism producing the X curve had nothing to do with the reverberant buildup in the room. The X curve results from the low pass filter action of the perforated screens, a small amount of air loss and whatever the drivers are doing. Cheers Glenn Glenn Leembruggen Acoustic Directions Pty Ltd 14 65-67 Crystal St Petersham 2049 Australia PO Box 205 Summer Hill 2130 tel: +61 2 9568 4684 fax: +61 2 9572 8939 mob: +61 418 207 085 The information contained in this e-document and any file attachments is confidential to all parties except the intended recipients. If you are not an intended recipient you have received this document in error and are prohibited from disclosing or using any of the information contained. We would be grateful if you would advise us of such errors immediately by return email. Thank you. -----Original Message----- From: <A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">sc-04-08-bounces at standards.aes.org</A> [mailto:<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">sc-04-08-bounces at standards.aes.org</A>] On Behalf Of Mark Yonge Sent: Monday, 27 October 2014 6:31 PM To: <A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">sc-04-08 at standards.aes.org</A> Cc: Mark Yonge Subject: [SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration"; mark yonge INTRODUCTION These comments relate to SMPTE's draft RP document on Modern-Calibration: original filename: "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration-RP-for-AES-comment 2014-10-02.docx" Posted 2014-10-03 to SC-04-08 as "x215-141002-DRAFT-SMPTE-Modern-Calibration.docx" COMMENTS GENERAL RP This "recommended practice" appears to leave much is left to the discretion and experience - "knowledgeable interpretation" - of the technician. Becaus individual cinemas can vary greatly, this is understandable and, I believe necessary. However, this argues against using unskilled technicians in this role, which may have been one of the intended goals. INSTALLATION VS CHECKS Prefer to keep installation issues separate from subsequent checks. It should be possible to confirm the satisfactory alignment of the system without changing any calibration. A simplified procedure for go/no-go performance checks could be included as an annex, with references to the main installation text where necessary. EFFICIENCY How much time should this process take? Would it be better to structure the document for smoother flow on the night? Keep movements between the projection booth, auditorium, and the behind-screen area to a minimum. USE OF ST 202 WITH FFT-BASED ANALYSER The X-curve in ST 202 depends entirely on measuring the acoustic reproduction of continuous pink noise in a reverberant auditorium using a traditonal 1/3-octave real-time audio analyser (TRA). The deviation of the X-curve from a flat trace results from the reverberation contribution which has a higher spl than the direct sound and is dominant at lower frequencies. ST 202 does not specify or require any filter in the signal path; its intent is to allow an imperfect measurement tool (RTA) to predict the amplitude and spectrum of the reverberation component to deduce spectrally-flat direct sound arriving at a typical seat in the auditorium. Unless the FFT analyser in this RP emulates the behaviour of an RTA precisely, the X-curve in ST 202 becomes irrelevant, and a new characteristic needs to be found. (see also below) CLAUSE-SPECIFIC COMMENTS NORMATIVE REFS IEC 61260 Ed.1:1995 has been superseded by IEC 61260-1 Ed.1:2014 " Electroacoustics - Octave-band and fractional-octave-band filters - Part 1: Specifications". I believe that the specifications in the international standard are equivalent to those in ANSI/ASA S1.11. Is it useful to cite both as normative references? TERMINOLOGY Decibel The unit "decibel" is spelled without a mid-cap. The bel, used alone, does not have a capital letter, according to SI. Sampling rate vs sampling frequency Just FYI, it is AES practice to refer to "sampling frequency" (in units of Hertz: Hz) where the sample-timing must be regular - such as in conversion, quantization and re-quantization - and "sampling rate" (in units of kilosamples per second: ksps) where the timing is more loosely-defined, such as in packetized streams, for example. 8.1 LOUDSPEAKERS The draft states, " Verify that all surround loudspeakers with a built-in switchable X-Curve filter are set to the same switch position. It is recommended that such switches be set to flat or off." This implies that some loudspeakers in cinemas have "X-curve" filters fitted. This is fundamentally to misunderstand the X-curve (see above). I can see no purpose for any generalized filter in the signal path of a loudspeaker. I understand that an RP must use the language of recommendation, but propose to replace "recommended" with "strongly recommended" at least. Same comment at A.18.5.2.2 16 DISTORTION SWEEP The proposed single-tone sweep from 20 Hz to 16 kHz seems unnecessarily wide for this purpose. Distortion harmonics of signals above about 8 kHz will be outside the audible spectrum, and the very high level proposed for this sweep (-3 dB FS) will risk damaging components at these high frequencies. Suggest restricting the single-tone high-level sweep to 20 Hz to 8 kHz, max. 18.5.1 SCREEN CHANNEL ELECTROACOUSTIC MEASUREMENTS The type of analysis to be used for these frequency response measurements is not well defined in this clause, and it's very important that it is. 18.5.1 describes using the analyser in transfer-function mode. But 18.5.1.1 asks for adjustments to fit the ST 202 X-curve. Unless I have misunderstood the meaning of "transfer-function mode", and the analyser actually does emulate precisely a traditional RTA measurement, this just doesn't work! To summarize, both cases assuming a continuous pink-noise stimulus: • A single-channel measurement that has been arranged to emulate precisely a traditional RTA measurement, and which measures the whole signal from the microphone including the reverberation component, should be used with the ST 202 X-curve. • A dual channel measurement that uses the source signal to discount the reverberation component in the received microphone signal should NOT be adjusted to the X-curve: it should probably be calibrated to a flat response. Either measurement technique should give an equivalent electroacoustic response in the auditorium - flat direct sound. Same comment at A.18.1 Clarity here is vital, I think. Mark Yonge vice chair, SC-04-08 <A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">mark.yonge at aes.org</A> _______________________________________________ SC-04-08 mailing list <A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">SC-04-08 at standards.aes.org</A> <<A HREF="http://standards.aes.org/sc.cfm?ID=91">http://...

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<TITLE> [SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration" </TITLE> pre { white-space: pre-wrap; /* css-2.1, curent FF, Opera, Safari */ } <H1>[SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration"</H1> markyonge <A HREF="mailto:sc-04-08%40standards.aes.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BSC-04-08%5D%20Comments%20on%20%22SMPTE-Modern-Calibration%22&In-Reply-To=%3C746BC9B5-8886-496C-B9D7-B24D38E5E43E%40aes.org%3E" TITLE="[SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration"">mark.yonge at aes.org </A> Tue Nov 4 07:31:38 MST 2014 <UL> <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="000233.html">[SC-04-08] X215 comments re microphones </A></li> <LI>Next message: <A HREF="000236.html">[SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration" </A></li> <LI> Messages sorted by: <a href="date.html#235">[ date ]</a> <a href="thread.html#235">[ thread ]</a> <a href="subject.html#235">[ subject ]</a> <a href="author.html#235">[ author ]</a> </LI> </UL> <HR>  <PRE>Dear SC-04-08, This discussion of the SMPTE ST 202 X-curve, developed in the late 1970s, would only be of arcane historical interest, except for the suggestion that it might be perpetuated in the Modern Calibration draft using a different measurement technique. In the late 1970s I aligned many cinemas for Dolby Laboratories, who were active in developing the X-curve as a pragmatic tool to calibrate the B-chains of mix rooms and cinemas. The intent was to take full advantage of the essentially-flat A-chain frequency response in Dolby Stereo films. The measurement equipment that was available seemed like rocket science at the time, but now looks very dated. The measurement technique produced reasonably consistent results, but relied heavily on some working assumptions, many of which are also now outdated. The following assertions are fully supported by SMPTE ST 202:2010 (and its close cousin, ISO 2969). I am happy to go into this in more detail, developing the presentation I gave to SC-04-08 in Rome, May 2013. Meanwhile: • The purpose of the X-curve is to predict a flat frequency response for direct (first-arrival) sound; • The X-curve is a measurement artifact and not an audio roll-off; • The X-curve represents a display on a real-time audio analyser (RTA), comprising a flat spectral component of the direct sound overlaid at lower frequencies by a higher-amplitude reverberation contribution from the cinema auditorium. (The direct sound comprises instantaneous energy at the microphone, while the reverberant energy has been integrating for perhaps as long as a second in a "typical" cinema, building up to a higher amplitude). The X-curve is directly useful ONLY under the following circumstances: • A "typical" cinema - in the 1970s this meant between approximately 200 and 2000 seats with the typical reverberation characteristics of a vaudeville theatre; • Continuous pink noise - other stimuli exist that will not produce the same reverberation component and will not produce a satisfactory X-curve display; • 1/3-octave real-time audio analyser (RTA). The X-curve is NOT useful under the following circumstances: • Small cinemas, screening rooms, preview theatres, music studio control rooms, home theatres; • Very large cinemas; • Open-air cinemas, sports stadia; • Any cinema acoustically treated to reduce its reverberation; • Discontinuous test signals; • Any spectrum-analysis tool that isn't a 1/3-octave RTA. In such circumstances where the X-curve is not useful, the X-curve should be ignored and the best available measurement technique should be used to produce a flat frequency response for direct (first-arrival) sound arriving at a typical audience position. Let me be clear: An auditorium equalised to the X-curve inappropriately is very likely to lack high-frequency energy and will sound dull. I do not believe that references to the X-curve should be continued in this Modern Calibration draft now that the measurement tools and cinema acoustics have changed sufficiently to take its application out of the main stream - it is, in effect, obsolete. Correspondence on this reflector has invoked various alternative explanations for the X-curve, referring to external papers unavailable to this group. If these papers contain some engineering wisdom relevant for this discussion, then it would be appropriate to post those papers to this group AND to identify the relevant text with reference to the corresponding clause numbers in ST 202. A bit of rigour would be appropriate - as engineers, we have a duty to keep science and folklore separate. Sincerely, Mark Yonge vice chair, SC-04-08 </PRE>  <HR> <UL>  <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="000233.html">[SC-04-08] X215 comments re microphones </A></li> <LI>Next message: <A HREF="000236.html">[SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration" </A></li> <LI> Messages sorted by: <a href="date.html#235">[ date ]</a> <a href="thread.html#235">[ thread ]</a> <a href="subject.html#235">[ subject ]</a> <a href="author.html#235">[ author ]</a> </LI> </UL> <hr> <a href="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">More information about the SC-04-08 mailing list</a> 

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<TITLE> [SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration" </TITLE> pre { white-space: pre-wrap; /* css-2.1, curent FF, Opera, Safari */ } <H1>[SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration"</H1> John Woodgate <A HREF="mailto:sc-04-08%40standards.aes.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BSC-04-08%5D%20Comments%20on%20%22SMPTE-Modern-Calibration%22&In-Reply-To=%3CGS5gZiJAJPWUFwK2%40jmwa.demon.co.uk%3E" TITLE="[SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration"">jmw at jmwa.demon.co.uk </A> Tue Nov 4 08:35:28 MST 2014 <UL> <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="000235.html">[SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration" </A></li> <LI>Next message: <A HREF="000237.html">[SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration" </A></li> <LI> Messages sorted by: <a href="date.html#236">[ date ]</a> <a href="thread.html#236">[ thread ]</a> <a href="subject.html#236">[ subject ]</a> <a href="author.html#236">[ author ]</a> </LI> </UL> <HR>  <PRE>In message <<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">746BC9B5-8886-496C-B9D7-B24D38E5E43E at aes.org</A>>, dated Tue, 4 Nov 2014, markyonge <<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">mark.yonge at aes.org</A>> writes: > A bit of rigour would be appropriate - as engineers, we have a duty to >keep science and folklore separate. The whole message is a valuable clarification. Let us rename the concept as the EX-curve. (;-) However, it is often very difficult to separate science and folklore, because people forget, or are too young to remember. 'Negative feedback reduces THD numerically but can actually make distortion musically worse.' Even back in 1978, Peter Baxandall ('Wireless World') implied that that statement was becoming treated as folklore, but it was true then and it's true now. This is OT for SC-04-08, but if you want to make an excellent amplifier using feedback, you must make the forward path as linear as you can possibly make it. (There's a thing about push-pull matched FETs that bears further investigation in that context, but that's for later.) -- OOO - Own Opinions Only. With best wishes. See www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Quid faciamus nisi sit? John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK </PRE>  <HR> <UL>  <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="000235.html">[SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration" </A></li> <LI>Next message: <A HREF="000237.html">[SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration" </A></li> <LI> Messages sorted by: <a href="date.html#236">[ date ]</a> <a href="thread.html#236">[ thread ]</a> <a href="subject.html#236">[ subject ]</a> <a href="author.html#236">[ author ]</a> </LI> </UL> <hr> <a href="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">More information about the SC-04-08 mailing list</a> 

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<TITLE> [SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration" </TITLE> pre { white-space: pre-wrap; /* css-2.1, curent FF, Opera, Safari */ } <H1>[SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration"</H1> David Josephson <A HREF="mailto:sc-04-08%40standards.aes.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BSC-04-08%5D%20Comments%20on%20%22SMPTE-Modern-Calibration%22&In-Reply-To=%3C5458F54A.5010309%40josephson.com%3E" TITLE="[SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration"">dlj at josephson.com </A> Tue Nov 4 08:48:26 MST 2014 <UL> <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="000236.html">[SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration" </A></li> <LI>Next message: <A HREF="000238.html">[SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration" </A></li> <LI> Messages sorted by: <a href="date.html#237">[ date ]</a> <a href="thread.html#237">[ thread ]</a> <a href="subject.html#237">[ subject ]</a> <a href="author.html#237">[ author ]</a> </LI> </UL> <HR>  <PRE>Mark, thank you for that summary of the key issue here. I think many might have missed that it *is* really that simple, from a measurement point of view. Measuring with pink noise and an RTA includes the reverberant contribution of the room, measuring the transfer function from a speaker does not. Using a random-incidence/diffuse-field/pressure response microphone oriented vertically is appropriate when you want to capture the reverberant energy from the room, i. e. when using pink noise and an RTA. Using a free-field microphone pointed at the speaker being measured is appropriate only when you want to measure the direct response from that speaker, using transfer function or system identification analysis. That's useful for determining whether a given speaker is functioning normally, but does not *by itself* predict what the listener would experience. I suggest that the current effort be considered only a stepping stone to a future measurement method. I believe -- people more involved in the artistic decisions should decide this -- that the intent is to measure the listener experience, not the individual speaker contribution to it. If that's so, we need to use more intelligent metrics, based on transfer function measurement but including the room reverberant response. That is certainly doable but not with the methods suggested so far. David Josephson Chair, SC-04 Subcommittee on Acoustics </PRE>  <HR> <UL>  <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="000236.html">[SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration" </A></li> <LI>Next message: <A HREF="000238.html">[SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration" </A></li> <LI> Messages sorted by: <a href="date.html#237">[ date ]</a> <a href="thread.html#237">[ thread ]</a> <a href="subject.html#237">[ subject ]</a> <a href="author.html#237">[ author ]</a> </LI> </UL> <hr> <a href="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">More information about the SC-04-08 mailing list</a> 

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<TITLE> [SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration" </TITLE> pre { white-space: pre-wrap; /* css-2.1, curent FF, Opera, Safari */ } <H1>[SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration"</H1> Brian Long <A HREF="mailto:sc-04-08%40standards.aes.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BSC-04-08%5D%20Comments%20on%20%22SMPTE-Modern-Calibration%22&In-Reply-To=%3C8DBDC6D514F3F44B99EA56F331381FE1C32E721C%40mailbox10.lucas.alllucas.com%3E" TITLE="[SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration"">blong at skysound.com </A> Tue Nov 4 09:50:19 MST 2014 <UL> <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="000237.html">[SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration" </A></li> <LI>Next message: <A HREF="000239.html">[SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration" </A></li> <LI> Messages sorted by: <a href="date.html#238">[ date ]</a> <a href="thread.html#238">[ thread ]</a> <a href="subject.html#238">[ subject ]</a> <a href="author.html#238">[ author ]</a> </LI> </UL> <HR>  <PRE>Please advise on where the papers should be posted and I will make them available from SMPTE via the liaison. There are a number of reference works in the AES Digital Cinema and Television TC reflector. The statement below is correct: "A "typical" cinema - in the 1970s this meant between approximately 200 and 2000 seats with the typical reverberation characteristics of a vaudeville theatre;" Unfortunately few cinemas retain characteristics such as this in the modern age. However the practice of referring to the X Curve remains the status quo and was never changed. As a result you have in the modern age a great number of screens with much less reverberant characteristics that still refer to the X Curve. Whether they should still be calibrated to the X Curve or not is an entirely different discussion which will happen in the next phase of work in SMPTE. However with the matter at hand it is interesting to note a few things that were examined and discussed extensively in this work: In a modern cinema with an approximate acoustic near or in the THX specification window RTA, fixed FFT transfer functions, and multi time window FFT based transfer functions returned nearly identical results when nuisance variables were eliminated. This was proven in a scenario examined by the SMPTE group in a modern cinema where devices shared the same electrical path from microphones to pre amplifiers along the same cables and then were split to a variety of devices from major manufacturers that are readily available. Differences in measurements were found to be attributed to various device specific characteristics sampling rates, measurement bins, etc. Such differences were minor. The results of this testing are on the SMPTE group's to do list to be formed into a publishable document and study. In combination with companion work that was detailed in reference papers presented at various conferences it was shown that the X Curve as found today in modern cinemas is primarily a result of screen and loudspeaker interaction with room acoustics and air attenuation in the majority of modern cinema environments being relatively minor contributing factors. It should be noted that the work in SMPTE and by other parties was done with the input of those originally responsible for the X-Curve. Please let me know if additional clarification of the work that led to this document is needed. Regards, Brian Long -----Original Message----- From: <A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">sc-04-08-bounces at standards.aes.org</A> [mailto:<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">sc-04-08-bounces at standards.aes.org</A>] On Behalf Of markyonge Sent: Tuesday, November 04, 2014 6:32 AM To: Working group on Measurement and equalization of sound systems in rooms Cc: markyonge Subject: Re: [SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration" Dear SC-04-08, This discussion of the SMPTE ST 202 X-curve, developed in the late 1970s, would only be of arcane historical interest, except for the suggestion that it might be perpetuated in the Modern Calibration draft using a different measurement technique. In the late 1970s I aligned many cinemas for Dolby Laboratories, who were active in developing the X-curve as a pragmatic tool to calibrate the B-chains of mix rooms and cinemas. The intent was to take full advantage of the essentially-flat A-chain frequency response in Dolby Stereo films. The measurement equipment that was available seemed like rocket science at the time, but now looks very dated. The measurement technique produced reasonably consistent results, but relied heavily on some working assumptions, many of which are also now outdated. The following assertions are fully supported by SMPTE ST 202:2010 (and its close cousin, ISO 2969). I am happy to go into this in more detail, developing the presentation I gave to SC-04-08 in Rome, May 2013. Meanwhile: • The purpose of the X-curve is to predict a flat frequency response for direct (first-arrival) sound; • The X-curve is a measurement artifact and not an audio roll-off; • The X-curve represents a display on a real-time audio analyser (RTA), comprising a flat spectral component of the direct sound overlaid at lower frequencies by a higher-amplitude reverberation contribution from the cinema auditorium. (The direct sound comprises instantaneous energy at the microphone, while the reverberant energy has been integrating for perhaps as long as a second in a "typical" cinema, building up to a higher amplitude). The X-curve is directly useful ONLY under the following circumstances: • A "typical" cinema - in the 1970s this meant between approximately 200 and 2000 seats with the typical reverberation characteristics of a vaudeville theatre; • Continuous pink noise - other stimuli exist that will not produce the same reverberation component and will not produce a satisfactory X-curve display; • 1/3-octave real-time audio analyser (RTA). The X-curve is NOT useful under the following circumstances: • Small cinemas, screening rooms, preview theatres, music studio control rooms, home theatres; • Very large cinemas; • Open-air cinemas, sports stadia; • Any cinema acoustically treated to reduce its reverberation; • Discontinuous test signals; • Any spectrum-analysis tool that isn't a 1/3-octave RTA. In such circumstances where the X-curve is not useful, the X-curve should be ignored and the best available measurement technique should be used to produce a flat frequency response for direct (first-arrival) sound arriving at a typical audience position. Let me be clear: An auditorium equalised to the X-curve inappropriately is very likely to lack high-frequency energy and will sound dull. I do not believe that references to the X-curve should be continued in this Modern Calibration draft now that the measurement tools and cinema acoustics have changed sufficiently to take its application out of the main stream - it is, in effect, obsolete. Correspondence on this reflector has invoked various alternative explanations for the X-curve, referring to external papers unavailable to this group. If these papers contain some engineering wisdom relevant for this discussion, then it would be appropriate to post those papers to this group AND to identify the relevant text with reference to the corresponding clause numbers in ST 202. A bit of rigour would be appropriate - as engineers, we have a duty to keep science and folklore separate. Sincerely, Mark Yonge vice chair, SC-04-08 _______________________________________________ SC-04-08 mailing list <A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">SC-04-08 at standards.aes.org</A> <<A HREF="http://standards.aes.org/sc.cfm?ID=91">http://standards.aes.org/sc.cfm?ID=91</A>> </PRE>  <HR> <UL>  <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="000237.html">[SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration" </A></li> <LI>Next message: <A HREF="000239.html">[SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration" </A></li> <LI> Messages sorted by: <a href="date.html#238">[ date ]</a> <a href="thread.html#238">[ thread ]</a> <a href="subject.html#238">[ subject ]</a> <a href="author.html#238">[ author ]</a> </LI> </UL> <hr> <a href="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">More information about the SC-04-08 mailing list</a> 

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<TITLE> [SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration" </TITLE> pre { white-space: pre-wrap; /* css-2.1, curent FF, Opera, Safari */ } <H1>[SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration"</H1> philip newell <A HREF="mailto:sc-04-08%40standards.aes.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BSC-04-08%5D%20Comments%20on%20%22SMPTE-Modern-Calibration%22&In-Reply-To=%3CCAEEhACn_7fCiFh_3n7-HXQmW4cxGig%3DtjM9Nr3Z33ZXR1Jsj_g%40mail.gmail.com%3E" TITLE="[SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration"">philiprnewell at gmail.com </A> Tue Nov 4 10:29:30 MST 2014 <UL> <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="000238.html">[SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration" </A></li> <LI>Next message: <A HREF="000240.html">[SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration" </A></li> <LI> Messages sorted by: <a href="date.html#239">[ date ]</a> <a href="thread.html#239">[ thread ]</a> <a href="subject.html#239">[ subject ]</a> <a href="author.html#239">[ author ]</a> </LI> </UL> <HR>  <PRE>Dear Mark, I have inserted some comments in you text, below. The statements can all be corroborated by published evidence. Best wishes, Philip On 4 November 2014 15:31, markyonge <<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">mark.yonge at aes.org</A>> wrote: > Dear SC-04-08, > > This discussion of the SMPTE ST 202 X-curve, developed in the late 1970s, > would only be of arcane historical interest, except for the suggestion that > it might be perpetuated in the Modern Calibration draft using a different > measurement technique. > > In the late 1970s I aligned many cinemas for Dolby Laboratories, who were > active in developing the X-curve as a pragmatic tool to calibrate the > B-chains of mix rooms and cinemas. The intent was to take full advantage of > the essentially-flat A-chain frequency response in Dolby Stereo films. The > measurement equipment that was available seemed like rocket science at the > time, but now looks very dated. The measurement technique produced > reasonably consistent results, but relied heavily on some working > assumptions, many of which are also now outdated. > > The following assertions are fully supported by SMPTE ST 202:2010 (and its > close cousin, ISO 2969). I am happy to go into this in more detail, > developing the presentation I gave to SC-04-08 in Rome, May 2013. Meanwhile: > > • The purpose of the X-curve is to predict a flat frequency response > for direct (first-arrival) sound; > It *patently does not do this, as has been shown in the recent SMPTE report (and the referenced Cardiff IOA paper).* > • The X-curve is a measurement artifact and not an audio roll-off; > *It is an audio roll-off.* > • The X-curve represents a display on a real-time audio analyser > (RTA), comprising a flat spectral component of the direct sound overlaid at > lower frequencies by a higher-amplitude reverberation contribution from the > cinema auditorium. (The direct sound comprises instantaneous energy at the > microphone, while the reverberant energy has been integrating for perhaps > as long as a second in a "typical" cinema, building up to a higher > amplitude). > *The evidence does not support ths conclusion. * > > The X-curve is directly useful ONLY under the following circumstances: > • A "typical" cinema - in the 1970s this meant between approximately > 200 and 2000 seats with the typical reverberation characteristics of a > vaudeville theatre; > • Continuous pink noise - other stimuli exist that will not produce > the same reverberation component and will not produce a satisfactory > X-curve display; > • 1/3-octave real-time audio analyser (RTA). > *All of this is questionable. * > > The X-curve is NOT useful under the following circumstances: > • Small cinemas, screening rooms, preview theatres, music studio > control rooms, home theatres; > *Correct, but in reality, it is used in many of these rooms.* > • Very large cinemas; > • Open-air cinemas, sports stadia; > • Any cinema acoustically treated to reduce its reverberation; > *Dolby (and others) apply it in rooms of all decay times, as shown in the SMPTE report.* > • Discontinuous test signals; > • Any spectrum-analysis tool that isn't a 1/3-octave RTA. > *The evidence does not support this. * > > In such circumstances where the X-curve is not useful, the X-curve should > be ignored and the best available measurement technique should be used to > produce a flat frequency response for direct (first-arrival) sound arriving > at a typical audience position. > > Let me be clear: An auditorium equalised to the X-curve inappropriately is > very likely to lack high-frequency energy and will sound dull. > *As do most cinemas, because they are aligned to the X-curve. * > > I do not believe that references to the X-curve should be continued in > this Modern Calibration draft now that the measurement tools and cinema > acoustics have changed sufficiently to take its application out of the main > stream - it is, in effect, obsolete. > *Dolby (and others) still apply it in rooms of all decay times, as shown in the SMPTE report.* > > Correspondence on this reflector has invoked various alternative > explanations for the X-curve, referring to external papers unavailable to > this group. If these papers contain some engineering wisdom relevant for > this discussion, then it would be appropriate to post those papers to this > group AND to identify the relevant text with reference to the corresponding > clause numbers in ST 202. > <A HREF="https://www.smpte.org/standards/reports">https://www.smpte.org/standards/reports</A> * B-Chain Frequency and Temporal Response Analysis of Theatres and Dubbing Stages* > > A bit of rigour would be appropriate - as engineers, we have a duty to > keep science and folklore separate. > > Sincerely, > > Mark Yonge > vice chair, SC-04-08 > _______________________________________________ > SC-04-08 mailing list > <A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">SC-04-08 at standards.aes.org</A> > <<A HREF="http://standards.aes.org/sc.cfm?ID=91">http://standards.aes.org/sc.cfm?ID=91</A>> </PRE>  <HR> <UL>  <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="000238.html">[SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration" </A></li> <LI>Next message: <A HREF="000240.html">[SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration" </A></li> <LI> Messages sorted by: <a href="date.html#239">[ date ]</a> <a href="thread.html#239">[ thread ]</a> <a href="subject.html#239">[ subject ]</a> <a href="author.html#239">[ author ]</a> </LI> </UL> <hr> <a href="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">More information about the SC-04-08 mailing list</a> 

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<TITLE> [SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration" </TITLE> pre { white-space: pre-wrap; /* css-2.1, curent FF, Opera, Safari */ } <H1>[SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration"</H1> Pete Soper <A HREF="mailto:sc-04-08%40standards.aes.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BSC-04-08%5D%20Comments%20on%20%22SMPTE-Modern-Calibration%22&In-Reply-To=%3C2BE563BCBE473946A8E72AE261D4F64B0177FD82D8%40XCHG1.ms.msli.com%3E" TITLE="[SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration"">psoper at meyersound.com </A> Tue Nov 4 11:03:07 MST 2014 <UL> <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="000239.html">[SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration" </A></li> <LI>Next message: <A HREF="000241.html">[SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration" </A></li> <LI> Messages sorted by: <a href="date.html#240">[ date ]</a> <a href="thread.html#240">[ thread ]</a> <a href="subject.html#240">[ subject ]</a> <a href="author.html#240">[ author ]</a> </LI> </UL> <HR>  <PRE>Regardless of any individuals perceived/believed/rumored rationale behind the X-curve, the fact remains that it is still the prescribed response plot for audio frequency response in ST-202M and RP-200 which are still the current SMPTE standard documents and practices for cinema B-chain alignment and calibration. The objective of the modern calibration AHG is not to re-write these standards, but rather to provide guidelines for using more commonly available modern measurement tools and techniques such as dual channel FFT transfer function analysis in performing the setup and verification of systems in accordance with SMPTE 202M and RP-200. As such, any arguments for or against the X-curve are completely outside the scope of that group- and correspondingly, AES X215. However, with that said- I think it is important to point out that several recent studies have illustrated that the matter of needing sound to project through a perforated screen results in a nominally "flat" speaker behind the screen results in very close to an "X-curve" response in front of the screen, this net effect on system response is repeatable and verifiable with either 1/3 octave RTA or dual channel transfer function analysis and despite claims by many to the contrary- is NOT just a measurement artifact, it is simply what happens when sound is transmitted through a perforated barrier. The recently published B-chain theater test group report shows that only one of the dubbing stages having a woven fabric screen (as opposed to perforated solid material) required a low-order HF roll off be imposed to meet the X-curve target, all of the perforated screen systems in the study had either no significant HF equalization or actually required boosting of some high frequencies in order to comply with the X-curve target window. -Pete Soper Meyer Sound Laboratories Inc. -----Original Message----- From: <A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">sc-04-08-bounces at standards.aes.org</A> [mailto:<A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">sc-04-08-bounces at standards.aes.org</A>] On Behalf Of markyonge Sent: Tuesday, November 04, 2014 6:32 AM To: Working group on Measurement and equalization of sound systems in rooms Cc: markyonge Subject: Re: [SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration" Dear SC-04-08, This discussion of the SMPTE ST 202 X-curve, developed in the late 1970s, would only be of arcane historical interest, except for the suggestion that it might be perpetuated in the Modern Calibration draft using a different measurement technique. In the late 1970s I aligned many cinemas for Dolby Laboratories, who were active in developing the X-curve as a pragmatic tool to calibrate the B-chains of mix rooms and cinemas. The intent was to take full advantage of the essentially-flat A-chain frequency response in Dolby Stereo films. The measurement equipment that was available seemed like rocket science at the time, but now looks very dated. The measurement technique produced reasonably consistent results, but relied heavily on some working assumptions, many of which are also now outdated. The following assertions are fully supported by SMPTE ST 202:2010 (and its close cousin, ISO 2969). I am happy to go into this in more detail, developing the presentation I gave to SC-04-08 in Rome, May 2013. Meanwhile: • The purpose of the X-curve is to predict a flat frequency response for direct (first-arrival) sound; • The X-curve is a measurement artifact and not an audio roll-off; • The X-curve represents a display on a real-time audio analyser (RTA), comprising a flat spectral component of the direct sound overlaid at lower frequencies by a higher-amplitude reverberation contribution from the cinema auditorium. (The direct sound comprises instantaneous energy at the microphone, while the reverberant energy has been integrating for perhaps as long as a second in a "typical" cinema, building up to a higher amplitude). The X-curve is directly useful ONLY under the following circumstances: • A "typical" cinema - in the 1970s this meant between approximately 200 and 2000 seats with the typical reverberation characteristics of a vaudeville theatre; • Continuous pink noise - other stimuli exist that will not produce the same reverberation component and will not produce a satisfactory X-curve display; • 1/3-octave real-time audio analyser (RTA). The X-curve is NOT useful under the following circumstances: • Small cinemas, screening rooms, preview theatres, music studio control rooms, home theatres; • Very large cinemas; • Open-air cinemas, sports stadia; • Any cinema acoustically treated to reduce its reverberation; • Discontinuous test signals; • Any spectrum-analysis tool that isn't a 1/3-octave RTA. In such circumstances where the X-curve is not useful, the X-curve should be ignored and the best available measurement technique should be used to produce a flat frequency response for direct (first-arrival) sound arriving at a typical audience position. Let me be clear: An auditorium equalised to the X-curve inappropriately is very likely to lack high-frequency energy and will sound dull. I do not believe that references to the X-curve should be continued in this Modern Calibration draft now that the measurement tools and cinema acoustics have changed sufficiently to take its application out of the main stream - it is, in effect, obsolete. Correspondence on this reflector has invoked various alternative explanations for the X-curve, referring to external papers unavailable to this group. If these papers contain some engineering wisdom relevant for this discussion, then it would be appropriate to post those papers to this group AND to identify the relevant text with reference to the corresponding clause numbers in ST 202. A bit of rigour would be appropriate - as engineers, we have a duty to keep science and folklore separate. Sincerely, Mark Yonge vice chair, SC-04-08 _______________________________________________ SC-04-08 mailing list <A HREF="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">SC-04-08 at standards.aes.org</A> <<A HREF="http://standards.aes.org/sc.cfm?ID=91">http://standards.aes.org/sc.cfm?ID=91</A>> NOTICE: This email may contain confidential information. Please see <A HREF="http://www.meyersound.com/confidential/">http://www.meyersound.com/confidential/</A> for our complete policy. </PRE>  <HR> <UL>  <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="000239.html">[SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration" </A></li> <LI>Next message: <A HREF="000241.html">[SC-04-08] Comments on "SMPTE-Modern-Calibration" </A></li> <LI> Messages sorted by: <a href="date.html#240">[ date ]</a> <a href="thread.html#240">[ thread ]</a> <a href="subject.html#240">[ subject ]</a> <a href="author.html#240">[ author ]</a> </LI> </UL> <hr> <a href="https://secure.aes.org/mailman/listinfo/sc-04-08">More information about the SC-04-08 mailing list</a> 

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